UOG,

"jesus didnt come to form a new church..[but alone to unite the fathers divided house]..be one as my father and i are one"

Well he failed....Jesus' ministry is continually being divided...Jesus allegedly said Matthew 10:34-35:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

Either Jesus is fibbing here or you are fibbing - which is it?

Waterboy,

Weren't you brave enough to answer the questions I posed? What does your Church teach regarding Moses' time on Earth? What does your Church preach about the passover? Can Churches teach fibs?

OUG answers are somewhat suspect.

Genesis 7:4

"For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth"

God allegedly drowned innocent babies and children because the adults were sinful. How could God kill innocent babies and children?

Matthew 1:23:

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus called Emmanuel! OMG Joseph and Mary broke God's instruction.

NOah defied God's instructions also.

Genesis 7:2-3:

Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

but in

Genesis 7:15:

And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

The fatally flawed Bible again!

UOG Aren't you being deceptive(unChristian?) when you typed see your Point 2...Which interpretations are God's words?

BTW...Satan is a fiction!

opinionated<<Well he failed....Jesus' ministry is continually being divided...Jesus allegedly said Matthew 10:34-35;"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth:I came not to..BRING..peace,but a sword.>>..

the WHOLE EARTH is UNDER satans usurpation-1john5;19..[yes he didnt bring peace to satans realm..[satan offered him these realms..[he refused it]..but by being peace he wrought a metophorical sword ammoung satans realm..[divided it]..simply by rejecting vile and inspiring the writing the words...love neighbour/love god

see words are sacred...[sacred words]=[s/words]...how goes the saying the pen is mightier than the s/word

<<For I am come to set a man at variance>>yes some are as satan[of this real[others chose to be of the spirit of love[rejecting hate

<<Either Jesus is fibbing here or you are fibbing - which is it>>...your reasoning is flawed[your reasoning of the meat[body/flesh[jesus reveals things of the spirit...the flesh can not realise this simple fact

<<OUG answers are somewhat suspect...Genesis 7:4..God allegedly drowned innocent babies and children because the adults were sinful...How could God kill innocent babies and children?>>these reports..are what the flesh remaining reports..BUT..see it from the spiritual perception

[spirit dont die..[dying means we go to eternal life..[those..who got god is love..died in the flesh..BUT LIVE ON IN THE SPIRIT[with god][those who lived[in the flesh..were dead..to the ways of spirit..[they didnt get the joke,so remained in the meat/body...mosus served/heard satan..lived on in the flesh..[its satans realm remember]

<<Matthew 1:23:Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus called Emmanuel!..OMG Joseph and Mary broke God's instruction.>>..read rev 21;3..LOUD VOICE out of the throne..saying..GOD is with-[in] men..he will tabernackle..WITH them..

[ie hear men will in time HEAR his..still quiet living loving inner voice..[GOD withIN us all..[sustaining us our very lives..[remember god breathed holy spirit into the clayman adam..[life]from life giver[noting men pass-on life..[living sperm]

<<BTW...Satan is a fiction!>>..ah but look at the war/s in this war realm..this is clearly satans/realm..[satan tests mankind..[because he was refined from fire..and gods logus/holy spirit..[man mearly of clay]..and gods holy spirit...but we stand on feet of clay

serve one master..[living loving..spirit[light/life]..truth good/god
or
the flesh...darkness[death]hate fear lies..satan
no one can serve two masters

Relda,
It is nice to hear one so grandly described! I must admit that I have read none of the authors you described as being radical orthodox. I tried Millbank once and found him too hard for my tiny brain. I found your question about what one is left with if we abandon secular objectivity interesting. I make no such claim, it is rather hard to be a scientist (now retired) and abandon such objectivity. However, while secular objectivity may give us a good description of, say human psychology, it gives us a poor ontology of the human. That is better described in Genesis 1-11 and in the person and work of Christ. This is where secular objectivity can only go so far and we must then rely on the collected stories of the human. The word “revelation” has become so contaminated by the supernatural as to be almost worthless. Here is another dualism: reason/revelation.
I agree with you about dualisms. There is no life without the body. It does seem that problematic theology stems from an infection from the Greeks, both Plato and Aristotle in their different ways. I am reminded in my studies of the seventeenth century that most working theologians were closet Aristotelians and that this led them onto strange theological paths especially as regards the theology of creation. The “first cause” is always in the background as it is today. Descartes gave neoPlatonic dualism a boost in the 16thC that still haunts us. So, although I do not believe in an original and pure Christianity I do see philosophical contamination and this prompts a move to retrieval of what may be called the radically orthodox especially perhaps in liturgy where the rubber hits the road.

Oliver.
The ascension is certainly problematic for secular objectivity. It is a prime example of the absence of body/spirit dualism in NT thought. The writer wants to say that Jesus returns to the Father from whence he came and the only way he can do this is to have him bodily rise through the clouds. Impossible, but the theological point is...

Sells,
I didn’t expect the baggy cap I placed on you to be much of a fit for size – more, it was an expedition to gauge how my ‘tiny brain’ might meld with yours. I’m somewhat pleasantly surprised.

As I’ve written elsewhere (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=8985#143795), I can only quite agree that secular objectivity has its limitation. In our time of pluralising religion a question begs, is Christianity, with its Christocentric and thus incarnational approach, not doomed to be always too particular, too historical, too positive? The
homoousious of the Son indeed implies ‘Whoever sees me, sees the Father’ and is definite as it is significant, it therefore can only be approached in a radical-hermeneutical way.

A process of ‘detraditionalisation’ and ‘pluralisation’ has changed the religious landscape of Europe (and elsewhere) over the last half century. It appears, a vague religiosity is doing away with some particular beliefs of Christian faith - it is now open to alternative expression. Rather than this being an infantile waste product, borne of a contemporary secular culture, a deeper conclusion might be drawn. A reaction has occurred from the disenchantment with secular rationality and its utopia and against the nihilism found in a post-secular society.

As Christianity still suffers on many occasions from its own cultural-hegemonic past, and is called to account for seemingly ‘unsettled bills’, this ‘process’ will certainly affirm itself. The ‘radical hermeneutics’ of an incarnation, I imagine also, prevents one from lapsing into either a universalism without particularity or, a closed particular ‘system’ of belief , i.e. fundamentalism.

The ‘tacit knowledge’ referred to by Michael Polanyi, where the informed guesses, hunches and imaginings that are part of exploratory acts become motivated by what he describes as 'passions'. He gave strong emphasis on the dialogue to be found within an open community (a theme taken up later strongly by the physicist David Bohm). This spirit of Dialogue is one of free play, a sort of collective dance of the mind that, nevertheless, has immense power and reveals coherent purpose, viz : "dia" which means "through" and "logos" which means "the word".

OUG,

Satan's a mythical being! You call Earth Satan's realm and yet that simply defies logic. Are you deceiving?

God can destroy Satan. God knows all things, can stop anything he chooses, but allows Satan to live. God knowingly pushed Satan here, so we humans would have to deal with him.

Hardly the act of a loving God!

In Job 1:6-7 God gets tempted by Satan and through that temptation fails his own greatness.

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

GOD gave SATAN power over Job! Satan tempted God and God failed!

Surely God wouldn't hand a loving servant over to Satan would he?

God knows all things past, present and future. He wouldn't hand over US to this rotter Satan would he?

Do Christians by believing this rubbish undermine their God? By teaching such craziness, aren't they actually making the God they think we should believe in, sound unintelligent?

If God is real, surely he is more intelligent than Christians teach?

opinionated..i could quote endless legal texts/from the holy book's of the truth..of satan..[and quote to you/the temptation of christ..as well as eve..and many others from the holy texts..

[but we need only look as far/as those calling themselves gods-people]who..not only claim to be able to own..gods..holy lands by lies murder and deceptions..[read balfore document etc..to see how far/the lord of this realm..has gone in bringing perpetual war to these realms

here we have..those claiming to be the people of god of life..killing gods creations throughout time..[this because they have been decieved by the great ruler..of this realm..[as jesus revealed#..''by their deeds will we know them'']

further jesus revealed..a beast knows its masters voice..[look at the children of the beast..[who love the murder of the children..who call themselves to follow gods will..[islamb]

your clear ignorance..of the life givers goodness and grace/mercy..[who gives life its freewill..to follow who it will..[satan]..or the chist..or even the budda or athiest godheads..[god GIVES all life their life freely to live[as we chose..[see life and death are oppisites..[like night and day...

a clear cut choice,love/hate..life/death....we of our freewil..can chose..to love good or love evil..[and god loves us none the less..[god is all love]..hate is nought to do with god

it is possable to understand satan..[the least will be greater than the baptiser]...i really can see where satan comes from..[i would refuse to bow to adam as well..[i like him would bow before none..less than the living loving lifegiver..[god/good]

any decieved by satan/decieve themselves..[i am reliable assured satan is not to be found in hell..[how could he be...this is his realm

i have previously said christ..was my highest teacher..[but christ teaches children..[then satan goes to work explaining the rest..[as revealed in the quran/..when mosus walked with satan]..even then..revealing there is underlying reasoning..behind the seemingly most vile act..

something job failed to realise...if job found favour in this realm..it was nought to do with the creator..[god of life]..

jobs god was satan..[the acts he ascribed to..'god'..were not in fact to the true good..[recall the sacrifices of scape goats KILLing an innocent beast..[hardly pleasing to god]

continued