So Pynchme, how does your oppressor know when it is safe to approach you?

Unfortunately the situation has occurred where a few elite academics/activists dictate what is or is not acceptable behaviour.

I have a few gay female friends and they regale me with stories that make me blush, and if, they were male they would definitely have been charged with a criminal offense.

Personally I think it would be much better to prevent rape from occuring rather than waiting until after the fact and then punishing the perpetrator.

Pynchme: "The clue is that silence is not consent."

There is an adult female out there who would allow herself to be raped without saying a word? Are you sure we talking about the same species here?

rstuart
"
There is an adult female out there who would allow herself to be raped without saying a word? Are you sure we talking about the same species here?"

For starters women dont 'allow' themselves to be raped. Secondly, most victims do not fight back at all. It's called fear and shock. Its actually a normal biological response to fear. Animals in the wild, when they sense danger often freeze and go silent- dear in the headlights style- this is a pre programed protection mechanism- the expectation being that if one freezes, the danger will not notice them and will pass by. Most women (and men for that matter) who are raped, go into a similar, dear in the headlights, fozen, speechless, shock. I know of one case where a woman had two black belts in different martial arts sports, but when she attacked for real by two men, she froze completely and was raped by both of them. This is why, contrary to the inaccurate rape stereotype, most rapes involve no actual physical violence and no weapons. The constraints used are psychological (fear and shock) not physical.

Pynchme, I don't know what your background is, but you are routinely right on the money in all your posts :-) nice to see someone informed comment in these debates.

also, the problem with 'no mean no' education is that many people (male anf female) have walked away with the message 'no means no... and anything else means yes'. So silence means consent. Not biting or screaming or kicking means consent. Not resisting means consent. The problem is, in most rape cases, silence and being frozen is the number one response. 'No means no' also works off the basis that a woman is ALWAYS in a state of consent unless she specifies otherwise. In reality a woman is NEVER is a state of consent unless she specifically states that she is.

Ninaf

I am very concerned that a man has to ask how he can tell if a woman is consensual or not?

As a sexually active person, I am that - an active participant. The time I was raped I just went along hoping it would all be over soon and that I wouldn't get beaten up as well. Also I never reported it because it would've been a case of "he said she said", as I wasn't physically hurt. Mentally, well I don't really want to open that can of worms. Besides I suspect there are those who enjoy reading about how fearful a rape victim can be; those types who like to intimidate people. Which is why I don't like to discuss rape much.

I just don't understand how it can be so confusing for some men on OLO that they can't tell if a woman is enjoying having sex with them and is not cooperating out of fear. Major difference.

Pynchme: "The assumption must always be NO sex; no hands on anyone else's body until there is clear and expressed consent."

While I appreciate where you are comming from, advice like that is so divorced from reality most will just ignore it. Consent for sex is rarely just a yes/no event. Even a yes can be withdrawn later. Instead it is a path the couple walk down. Most steps on the path aren't verbal. They are a look, a gesture, a touch or even a discussion about an unrelated subject, and the yes/no responses are given in the same subtle ways. You say consent must be explicit, but the reality is it can be given in so many ways it is impossible to define what explicit consent is.

It is, however, relatively easy to make a "no" explicit. It is not final, as the initiator is often expected to try a different branch on the path that might lead to a yes. But there is no argument that if every path lead to a "no", sex is rape. Thus it is not the clear and expressed consent that is important, it is whether in the end the answer was "no". It can't be any other way.

ninaf: "Secondly, most victims do not fight back at all."

I have difficulty with that, Nina. The idea that someone being raped would not express displeasure at what is happening, even if it is just passively, is very hard to accept. Proving they did is a different issue of couse, but that wasn't my point.

To put in terms of the walk above, either it didn't happen - which is clearly rape, or they were threatened into silence - which is also rape, or at some point someone didn't say "no" yet didn't want sex - which isn't rape, but rather a confused mess.

"someone didn't say "no" yet didn't want sex - which isn't rape,"

maybe not in your mind rstuart but you might want to check the case law... this is without question rape. You cant just go round rooting anyone you feel like who doesn't want it, but doesnt know how to say no. Read fractelles post. You still dont seem to get it. Women are never ever ever in a state of consent unless they specifically state that they are and men can NEVER assume that they are- for your own legal protection you have to ASK first- not just assume. This is not a difficult task. its not about getting a woman to sign a document beofer you get down to business. Its as simple as saying to a gal "are you all cool with this?" and then throughout the sexual act, negotiating new things such as "would you be comfortable with doing such and such?" rather than just going ahead and doing it. It's not fricken rocket science, boys. Also if a woman goes stiff, silent or is not moving its generally because she is not enjoying it at all and is afraid of what will happen if she makes you stop (being verbally or physically abused). Just bc a woman does not stop a sexual act it does not mean she is consenting to it. READ FRACTELLES POST!.