Josgar

"And that is where taking responsibility DOES come into it."

Are you saying that women are responsible for their behaviour? Then I agree.

But doesn't the same rule apply to men? Should not men ask themselves if it is responsible behaviour to indulge themselves in sex with a drunken female? Particularly group sex. Couldn't they just put her in a taxi to take her home?

I get the feeling that there is an acceptance that if a women is silly enough to get drunk with a group of men, somehow she deserves what she gets. Isn't this treating all men as thugs instead of adults who also have responsibilities and can think about the consequences of their actions?

JosGar: "And that is where taking responsibility DOES come into it."

Come into what? Surely not into how we judge the man's behaviour. If a scantily drunk woman clearly refuses sex, and yet a man forces himself onto her how is that different from him forcing himself on a nun down walking down the street?

It might well influence how much sympathy we have for the woman. Yes, she put herself in risky, avoidable position. Well, that's her choice I guess. But it in no way excuses than man's behaviour. Arguing that is like arguing a person should receive a lessor sentence for killing a homeless drunk as opposed to a judge of the high court.

pelican

"The sexualisation of children is different to the sexual nature of a grown adult women and has nothing to do with feminism"

I can't believe you wrote that! Children see sex all around them: on TV, videoclips, movies, billboards. It's everywhere. Can we then be surprised when children start experimenting with sex at a younger and younger age?

This has EVERYTHING to do with feminism. Feminism campaigned long and hard for the 'right' of women to 'express' their sexuality. Well, girls know from a very young age what beauty means. It means: money, prestige, fame, and most of all, POWER. Power to have all the things you want; and importantly something for which feminists have long strived for, and succeeded with spectacualar success: power over men.

Women now call the shots no matter how outrageous their actions.

You and later posters have confirmed this. You suggest that a woman need never take responsibility for her own actions. I never suggested that the men were right or that they shouldn't be punished, I only suggested that if a drunken woman with a history of group sex accompanies a group of men to their hotel at 3am in the morning then she should be held accountable for her actions. The fact that people now defend her shows how successful feminism has been. If you looked back 50 or so years thru the newspapers, you would find a markedly different attitude back then. People would simply say, what do you expect? They expected women to take responsibility for their actions.

fractelle,

Men are always expected to take responsibility for their actions. If you went through court records you would find that when men and women commit comparable crimes, men get significantly tougher sentences than women. I'll bet the boys in this case get just as much punishment as the girls, even though they did nothing wrong.

Your language also betrays a bias. I never made a value judgement about the women whose actions were in pretty poor taste. Yet you called the men thugs.

In the real world, people have sex. Even group sex. People go home with one another for group sex too. If the men had met the women in church and gone home with her then it would be understandable, but that isn't what happened.

The footballers did what adults do. Adults meet one another in clubs and pubs and alcohol is involved. It is not uncommon for people to then go home and have sex. In fact, it's pretty much implied that if you meet someone and go home with them at 3am that is what would happen. What else were they going home for?

Your 'put her in a taxi' statement is a bit much. Why didn't she just get in a taxi and go home in the first place?

rstuart,

You agrument is another example of women not taking responsibility for their actions. You say that all rape is rape. That part is true. But the damage that all rape does is not the same. your nun example is pertinent. How could raping a nun possibly inflict the same emotional damage as raping a prostitute? the nun would be a virgin and never have had sex before, while the prostitute has sex for a living. How are these two things equal? It's really shows the depravity our society has come too when the life of prayer, service, and obedience is seen as equalivant to walking the streets.

Dane

Exactly what are you suggesting here? If a man goes out and gets absolutely wasted is he asking to get raped up the ass by a group of men? And (presuming you're a male and that you drink on occasion) if next time you were to go out drinking some guys approached you and gang raped you and then you went to report is and the police said "well, you were drinking and we know you weren't a virgin and what were you doing hanging out in a pub- everyone knows that pubs are full of groups of men"- I wonder how you'd feel then.

You obviously have some massive issues with women and your comments about feminism show what a limited understanding you have of the movement. It is not, nor has ever been about securing power over men. It's actually about eroding gender inequality

Dane your comments about the rape of a nun vs a prostitute are disgusting. As someone who works with sexual assault victims, let me just say that the trauma cased by a rape has nothing to do with the extent of the victims sexual history and in fact it has little to do with sex. It's about someone treating you as though you ahve no human value, exerting power over you just becasue they can. This traumatic regardless of whether the person is a virgin.

In fact it is often even worse for sex workers than it is for virgins as sex workers are offered less support by the community, they are not believed by police and they have people tell them that the assault "was not really rape, it wsa just a welched business deal". We know that one of the greatest factors to effect recovery after a rape is the types of attitudes victims encounter after disclosure. For sex workers they often hear the most appauling attitudes and this makes recovery harder. So I agree with you. Raping a virgin nun and raping are sex worker are not the same.