SJF - absolutely agreed. I am starting to think that these fellows here are incapable of empathy.

Perhaps, but then again, it might be because you are not getting your own way!

http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/12/15/what-does-it-mean-to-men-that-they-make-the-first-move/

"We customarily refer to the person who does the asking in romantic and/or sexual relationships as the “aggressor.” This term obscures the vulnerability of the role. The term “supplicant” seems better suited to capturing that vulnerability.

It seems likely to me that the majority of men feel like supplicants in intimate relationships of all sorts. Men who are frequently refused may, with good reason, feel like beggars"

Now how is your empathy level?

JamesH, anyone would appreciate that rejection, when ASKING for attention (a date or a dance or whatever), is humiliating. If rejection must be given, it should always be done kindly and respectfully.

However, this discussion hasn't been about ASKING for dates and things; it's been about people taking what they want to gratify themselves regardless of the wishes of the other. Why don't you and Antiseptic do yourselves a favour and stop (conveniently, for yourselves) confusing the two.

Antiseptic; you have passed the point of ridiculous.

"Empathy does not necessarily imply compassion, sympathy, or empathic concern because this capacity can be present in context of compassionate or cruel behavior." Wiki

My post was in response to your empathy claims.

<it's been about people taking what they want to gratify themselves regardless of the wishes of the other>

Mummh, that sounds more like a psychopath. Even worked with a few who wear Prada.

pynchme:"this discussion hasn't been about ASKING for dates and things; it's been about people taking what they want to gratify themselves regardless of the wishes of the other."

And you constantly conflate the two.

Let me ask you again: why is always my responsibility, as a man, to ensure that you, as a woman with a presumably functional voice, arms and legs, are in agreement with our carrying out our mutual activity?

Why is the man always held responsible? Why does the woman bear no such responsibility?

As James said, it's all about maintaining woman in the position of "bestowing her gifts" and man in the position of begging for them. You see men as innately and predominantly sexual and you don't much like sex, do you? It's so...icky and someone has to sleep in the wetspot, don't they and men are so quick to fall asleep after, they never want to lie awake discussing how everyone feels about what they just did...

Here's a piece of news, dear - normal women enjoy sex. They participate in it willingly and joyously using parts of the body that are specific to the purpose. Normal women don't equate sex with anal rape. That you do is far more revealing of you than you'd care to admit, I suspect.

Given your deviant view of the subject, there's probably not much point in continuing it.

"Therefore, the notion that people obtain a clear YES rather than assume that they are entitled to touch someone else's body, is, apparently, how the majority of our society behaves."

Posted by Pynchme, Thursday, 23 April 2009 9:34:49 PM

"However, this discussion hasn't been about ASKING for dates and things; it's been about people taking what they want to gratify themselves regardless of the wishes of the other."

Posted by Pynchme, Tuesday, 28 April 2009 7:36:59 PM

Please make up your mind Pynchme.

So you have escalated from asking permission or at least trying to obtain a YES, to taking what one wants without regard to the wishes of the other.

A point of order. Is that the recent changes in the laws about consent, has nothing to do with reducing the level of sexual assault, but is more about increasing the numbers of successful prosecutions.

Just like changes to the way rape is defined, it has nothing to do with reducing the incidences, but was more of an attempt at increasing the levels of prosecution.

So what was once was possibly seen as bad behaviour, then becomes criminal behaviour.

'Just like changes to the way rape is defined, it has nothing to do with reducing the incidences, but was more of an attempt at increasing the levels of prosecution.'

I'd say it really has more to do with boosting rape figures by including every women who is pinched on the bum. It makes the stats look more 'impressive', so it looks like a bigger problem, so you can get more funding. Every organisation that wants government money for their cause does it.

Truth is always the first casualty in raising awareness.