JamesH: "how is convicting a person of a crime making the world a safer place? ... Just look at the US, even the threat of the death penalty is no deterrent."

In the obvious way - it is a deterrent. Most people will avoid doing things that might put them in jail, or indeed just have a criminal conviction recorded against them.

I think you are confusing the effect of any deterrent with the effect of imposing greater deterrents. Just the threat of conviction will stop most of us, but increasing the deterrent with longer jail sentences does have a rapidly diminish effect. As you say capital punishment have no measurable effect over life sentences.

Also, criminalising things is how our society draws lines in the sand. It is the way we say "rape is not acceptable". Compare it to personal copyright offences. They are not a criminal offence, and we can't bring ourselves to make it one. This reflects the fact that most people do consider copying where no monetary gain is involved to be acceptable behaviour.

SJF:"demanding answers"

Me:"Please do answer those questions "

You have a funny idea of what constitutes a "demand". No wonder you think that a chat-up line is an attempt to rape.

SJF:"your bombastic need to control others and to be at the centre of attention by demanding answers to a lot of useless questions. "

erm, I was having a discussion about what constitutes the nature of rape. Are you still struggling to get over your obsession with me? Goodness gracious, girl, get a life!!

SJF:"you cannot accept any kind of cultural practice that actually puts a woman’s integrity at centre stage, instead of men’s"

My whole point is that women (and men) have the capacity and responsibility to exercise their integrity, while ninaf and Pynchme (and presumably, you, when you get over me) are arguing that it is only men who have the responsibility to exercise their integrity. They've not yet provided a single reason why, of course

SJF - absolutely agreed. I am starting to think that these fellows here are incapable of empathy - they will never get it at least until they are on the receiving end of some of the behaviours they seem to think are so essential to maleness.

JamesH and Antiseptic: You are both arguing that men have the right to touch anyone else's body, or the man is somehow emotionally impoverished. (pfft BFD).

I don't know if either of you practice male-male sex, and I apologize if you do, but for the moment I'm assuming that you're both strictly heterosexual. So let's imagine that another male sees you as sexually desirable. It's quite ok with you is it if he touches you? Maybe approaches you intimately while you're sleeping? Ok with you if he bonks you while you're inebriated or drugged ?

You can't complain can you; because you didn't say, "No." Once he's touched you - and it might be quite invasively - the hurt is already done to some extent. But that wouldn't be his fault hey; he isn't expected to assume a NO is he. Your argument is that he may assume a yes, because yes is the prey's default position. Even if you say no; according to rstuart, it isn't necessary for him to take that at face value - he just has to keep trying until he finds the path to your compliance - right?

Antiseptic - exactly what emotions are impoverished by ensuring that your partner wants you or is enjoying whatever you're doing?

Pynchme:"You are both arguing that men have the right to touch anyone else's body,"

Not at all. We're saying that there is a massive difference between a rape and normal sex and that for people in normal relationships there is no trouble identifying which is which. You're saying that the man has all the responsibility, assuming that a man is always an aggressor sexually and that a woman is always the "pursued". In my experience this is not the case. I lost my virginity at 17 to a 19 year-old woman who was quite clear about what she wanted. I'd say that about 30% of all "casual" sex I've ever had has been initiated by the woman and when I've been in relationships my partners have had no trouble making it clear when they felt horny. Sometimes I've not felt like it, even made my position clear, but eventually "gone along for the ride". Hardly rape, is it, yet that is what you are claiming. By doing so you cheapen the experience of genuine rape victims.

As for your homosexual analogy, as I pointed out, I don't regard the anus as a vagina-analogue. I've never had anal sex with a woman or a man and I would never suggest it to a partner, but if she asked me, I might participate.

No one is suggesting that sex obtained by violence, or in your example, from an unknown person whilst one is unconscious or in an orifice one is not happy to have used is not rape.

[cont]

Now, dear, I keep answering your rather silly questions, but you still haven't had a go at my rather pertinent ones: why are you, as a woman, not responsible for making your wishes known, while I, as a man, am entirely responsible for working out what your wishes are? I you don't want sex, say no clearly and frequently, if need be. Some women say "no", meaning "not till you've taken the time to allow me to convince myself I'm not a slut". Some women say "no, but their actions say "yes". I've encountered several of each. Some say "no", which means "not if anyone is going to find out". I've known a couple like that, too. If I'd listened to the first no in all those cases, neither of us would have been happy.

The normal courtship dance has been ever thus. What you're trying to do is have two bob each way.

Pynchme:"exactly what emotions are impoverished by ensuring that your partner wants you or is enjoying whatever you're doing?"

It's simple - under your preferred regime the man is not permitted to concentrate on the activity, but must instead concentrate on whether he's going to wake up the next day with the woman who's now moaning under his touch claiming that he raped her. that may make your own ovaries ache with power-control joy, but it rather ruins the ambience for me.

The fact that you even had to ask that question speaks volumes about you, I'm afraid. You're really quite emotionally stunted, aren't you?

Pynchme, Australian's when compared to some European and Mediteranean countries are very inhibited when it comes to touching.

The French and Italians are extremely touchy.

I work with some people from other countries and some of them are very touchy, it was a bit of a culture shock for me.

There is one particulae young aussie woman who gives me unexpected cuddles.

"why are you, as a woman, not responsible for making your wishes known, while I, as a man, am entirely responsible for working out what your wishes are?"

I, second that Anti.

I saw it written somewhere that men are the supplicants, when it comes to sex.