mkk
I also paused a minute on that one: I would have thought that the freedom of liberalism was equally blood-drenched given historical context.

As many have pointed out, it is impossible to achieve dialogue when one's opposition commences from a point of moral superiority. The repeatedly voiced opinion that those who do not identify as Christian have no strength of character, are immoral, unethical and licentious puts those who would oppose this view on the back foot.

While many may dispute this I say that those who do not present as Christians show an inordinate amount of faith: faith in humanity.

The idea that humans are an intelligent species who are capable of working out why certain behaviours are "evil"; why brotherhood is important; how the interdependence of all living things is threatened by irresponsibility and why love is a more positive force than hatred is expressive of this faith.

Also, Peter, I think you have the idea of the tabula rassa slightly skewed...as you do its genesis. Locke did not "invent" it.

ps. to the poster who mentioned it: Though I adhere to no religion myself, Wicca is alive and well, you know, and gaining more adherants.

Romany,

That is an obvious ccontradiction. Wicca is a religion albeit a pagan one it is stilla religion

Foxydude

Romany never said whether it was a religion or not, he just said he himself (herself?) didn't adhere to a religion...

It seems to me, Sell, that you might admire Australia’s Exclusive Brethren, who seem to strive toward the sort of religious commitment that may remedy some of the ills you lament; at least on a local community level.

And there is also the Quiverfull sect, in the USA:
http://www.alternet.org/rights/134000/christian_fundamentalist_group_preaches_patriarchy_and_women%27s_fertility_as_weapons_for_spiritual_warfare/

Christian Fundamentalist Group Preaches Patriarchy and Women's Fertility as Weapons for Spiritual Warfare
By Mark Karlin, BuzzFlash. Posted March 30, 2009.

excerpt:
“Mark Karlin [interviewing Kathryn Joyce]:
You wrote the book called Quiverfull, Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement. In the beginning of the book, you give an overview of what the Quiverfull movement is. Can you describe it to us?”

Kathryn Joyce:
“Quiverfull itself is a movement and a conviction among deeply conservative, theologically conservative Christians and pro-life purists who believe that you should accept as many children as God will give you based on Psalm 127, which reads: "Like arrows in the hands of a warrior are sons born in one's youth. Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them. They will not be put to shame when they contend with their enemies at the gate." So it's kind of a dual emphasis on accepting as many children as God will give you, both as a demonstration of radical trust and obedience in God and also a really concerted effort to win the culture wars demographically.”

Davity

One minute you are boasting about your definition of 'freedom' and the next minute you complain when I point out to you that your god denying philosophy leads to misery for many in this life and hell in the next. You then lecture me on being judgemental when you claim not to believe in the Judge. You no doubt would complain bitterly if I said your views were the same as other Securalist such as Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot and then you equate Christians with people doing things totally in opposition to the head of the church Christ.

Seems to me you are happy to give out but not take.

Hi all,

I just need to correct some earlier posts. Adolf Hitler was a ardent Christian and made many public statements affirming this.

Here is just one quote sourced from the following website:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

Another point related to belief systems and genocide is that the "global war on terror" which is being orchestrated in the name of "freedom and liberal democracy" appears to mimic the Crusades (Iraq invasion) and the Inquisition (Renditions, waterboarding and "Gitmo") in its ruthlessness towards civilian populations. Perhaps it is useful to seperate the beleif systems from the actors when it comes down to debating the merits of liberalism, christianity and other belief systems.