>> the principles of the organisation are sound

otkonoko, to me the principles of the *catholic* organisation don't look sound. they look absolutely appalling.

TY Otokonoko,

I am not suggesting and have never suggested that people should give up their faith. Your analogy about Australia and say the stolen generation is reasonable but still very insufficient.

That so many people don't go directly to the police is troubling. However, as clergy have such a powerful position in communities & people's lives and, added to the pathetic responses generally from the church hierarchy, these poor souls are too scared to report. If we haven't been abused, I doubt whether any of us can imagine, how tough the decisions are, these people have to take are!

Who could blame them? They have been battered and bruised in the most disgusting and soul destroying way by someone they trusted the most. Then of course Churches are powerful organisations and can afford the best lawyers! Do church leaders go to their lawyers first and not the victims? Is this unChristian?

I doubt you can then go on to argue the principles of an organisation are sound if things are hidden as they have been. Especially, in a religious organisation that claims it is Christian and lectures so heavily on sin. What of the organisations sins?

As this is now public knowledge and if what this article alleges is correct why haven't the police acted? In Australia the police charge the alleged perpetrator PLUS can charge people who didn't take the correct action as being accessories after the fact.

Does the apology from the Bishops and the Archbishop constitute an admission of guilt under the law? Are they accessories after the fact? Did their lack of reporting inhibit what would have been a police investigation?

And what disciplinary action did the church really take? Did it allegedly demote the perpetrator? And how does someone stay archbishop or bishop if what this article alleges is true? Is this good enough?

Does the handling of this whole case seem morally irreprehensible?

If these are the standards that are being set by religious institutions, are those institutions entitled to the position they still hold within our society? Matthew 12:33-3

To understand right-from-wrong, it's necessary to grasp the WHY, bushbasher! I'd imagine that's self-evident.

RE: paedophilia as immoral...

'i can answer these (yes, and yes), but what do the answers matter?'

I'd consider it very important to understand the immorality of paedophilia and it should certainly matter...are you suggesting that any sexual activity in private is ok?

If those answers don't matter to you and you've little regard for contrary opinions, why are you so interested in my approval of your own sexual preferences or behaviour?

I won't be checking in your window or asking for your approval of my lifestyle either, the fact you need approval for yours is an indication you're uncomfortable with your choices.

O2, if you're embarassed being confronted with the truth, take the first step, change your mindset and allow others to express their opinions and hold beliefs contrary to your own...

Your judgementalism needs some work though...'All I did was call you to answer...that you would stand up and say you follow...You answered zip!'

Why would you think I'm answerable to you? For my beliefs-my thoughts-my anything? Perhaps you've a problem with delusions-of-grandeur...you're in control, are you?

You aren't just hypocritical, you also presume you know-it-all...your suggestion that I ask the Church to put clergy in the hands of the police, smacks of complete lack-of-any-grip-on-reality! I've no evidence to support such a request, do you? Why don't you present whatever evidence you have to police...I've none and I'll refrain from passing judgement, so-should-YOU!

When you're back-in-the-real-world, try a post that accepts the reality of Catholicism...and all the associated good work...acknowledge the % of good.

Quite a difference between 4-5% and 33%, anyone can claim statistics, much harder to prove them...this disparity alone proves the contradiction,inaccuracy and lack-of-credibility in your self-styled 'experts'.

RE: CM Article, interesting, you quote media 'gospel'...did you write the article? Why expect Catholics to write to CM? What would they know about the incidents (unless they're directly involved)? Why didn't the CM respect the victim's&family's wishes?Since when's CM society's confidante? How many journalists have been involved in sexual misconduct?

(tbc...)

(Cont...)

Where are all the articles on journalists misdemeanours for balance?

Your 'annoyance' and 'objection' to other's behaviour's laughable...My distaste at sexual perversion is unacceptable but you get-on-your-high-horse about 'over-the-top-behaviour'...get a grip...really!

You've little idea about reporting crimes, Otokonoko's right, crime's reported by the victim and those closest. How many well-intentioneds stepped in and reported 'a crime' to find the 'victim' denied it...the 'victim' has to acknowledge the problem and report it, they know the facts, not-you-or-I.

'The Church' would've reported heresay, not facts, under the circumstances...and incidentally, the Uniting-Anglican-all-other-churches-Scouts-Teachers-Jounalists-Medical-and-Legal-Profession-etc, etc,...all contain a small minority who've been guilty of paedophilia, your obsession with branding and demonising all-thingsCatholic only highlights your bigotry and bias.

'rent-a-crowd' is a descriptive term also used by the CM, hardly 'hard-heart'-ed...get a grip! Given media statements from the 'rent-a-crowd', an apt description indeed...if the cap fits...were you there too?

You incorrectly claim to answer my questions and claim that I'm in conflict with the Bible...I'm not a paedophile, nor am I homosexual, nor an adulterer...which of God's commandments do you claim I've broken? Those are God's laws...which am I in conflict with? Judge not, lest you be judged...

Let's examine the 'standards' we set before we cast the first stones at others...humans all, with human weaknesses,no superheroes, but plenty of courageous Christians amongst us who keep trying despite the bigotry of others.

Your description of the oppotunities for abuses of 'power' possible in Churches, also apply to media who can also abuse power and use innocent victims to get-a-good-story, despite the added, ongoing trauma caused. Again you rant about the Church 'lecturing on sin'...when? Where? Are you sticky-beaking in Catholic Churches now? Is that why you accused me, because it's what you do?

Why don't you and CM go to the police if you've info? Or is it gossip-mongering and more bigotry?

I'll leave you with your last words, more of your confused gibberish...'morally irreprehensible'...huh?

>>To understand right-from-wrong, it's necessary to grasp the WHY, bushbasher! I'd imagine that's self-evident.

good. we agree. then i'd be delighted if you'd tell me WHY homosexuality is immoral.

>>I'd consider it very important to understand the immorality of paedophilia and it should certainly matter..

the abuse of childen has nothing to do with judging the morality of activities among consenting adults.

>> are you suggesting that any sexual activity in private is ok?

again, irrelevant.

meg1, this constantly changing the question is a silly game of yours. either you have a *reason* for why homosexuality is immoral, or you don't. if you have a reason, why not give it?

>> you've little regard for contrary opinions,

not true. i just have little regard for your opinion.

>> why are you so interested in my approval of your own sexual preferences or behaviour?

interesting that you should presume to know my sexual preferences, and that you presume i seek your approval.

from my point of view, i'm simply trying to find the source of your belief. i'm simply trying to find out WHY you regard homosexuality as immoral. i would like to know if it is anything other than thoughtless bigotry.

Meg with every word you prove my case!

You aren't answerable to me... I just ask simple bible related questions that you can't answer. Your God is watching you! Matthew 12:36-37

I'm totally in control ...I am not a homophobic bigot, are you? Matthew 7

Was that a Pontius Pilot - washing of your hands Meg? Matthew 27:24

I said "ALL churches and organisations SHOULD report ALL crimes to the POLICE!" - Well should they?

If the article is wrong - Why did the Archbishop and Bishops apologise? What is the churches STRONG stance on homosexuality again Meg? Do you have double standards Meg?

Of course if you don't have knowledge of a crime you can't report one Meg (der)... Couldn't you write to Cardinal Pell imploring him that he instruct the Catholic Church to release their records to the Police? You must suspect the records exist!

<<How many journalists have been involved in sexual misconduct?>>

Not as many as the churches Meg... Is this the best you can do?

Dare to be informed? http://brokenrites.alphalink.com.au/nletter/bccrime.html

I didn't get on my high horse, I stated a fact - I am not particularly fond of over the top homosexuals and heterosexuals - I also don't like homophobic bigots especially those who call themselves Christian!

Is judging people and calling people names is unChristian Meg?

Have you broken the following of God's laws in this thread?

Do not judge others(Matthew 7:1-5)

Anger - Matthew 5:21-23

Matthew 5:9 Are you working for peace with your words?

Matthew 5:7 Are you merciful to others?

Matthew 5:39 Turn the other cheek

Matthew 7:19 You fail to do what you can to remove the trees (clergy) that in your religion do not bear good fruit. Why expect the victims to do it all?

Matthew 7:4-5 Fist remove the log from your own eye Meg!

I'm not anti-catholic "Do not bear false witness" Exodus 20:16

Meg are you really a Christian? Remember the verse Matthew 12:36-37