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The Forum > Article Comments > St Maryís and St Michaelís > Comments

St Maryís and St Michaelís : Comments

By Alan Austin, published 9/3/2009

Brisbane's Catholic Archbishop John Bathersby and Victoriaís Uniting Church Moderator Jason Kioa are facing similar challenges. Their responses could hardly be more different.

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The difference is is that the catholic (universal?) church, via the "Magisterium", is an inherently totalitarian organization that wants and intends to rule the entire world, and that given the opportunities to do so, will actively do whatever it can to accomplish this world-"rulership" drive.

And as a totalitarian institution it cant tolerate any real dissent, or even free thinking.

Isnt it completely obvious that McNabs bullet points are completely and undisputably true, as are his comments on the fictional character Abraham and his depiction of Moses as an advocate of genocide.

Isnt the "Old" Testament essentially a genocidal text altogether!
Posted by Ho Hum, Monday, 9 March 2009 12:01:15 PM
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Ho Hum wrote: Isnt the "Old" Testament essentially a genocidal text altogether!

Dear Ho Hum,

No. A well known saying of Jesus:

MATTHEW 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Jesus was not saying anything new but was quoting the OT which he learned from his Jewish religious training. He cites one of the ten commandments in part of his statement and the OT in the other part of his statement.

LEVITICUS 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Note the specific command not to be vengeful. That statement could be interpreted as an injunction to love only the children of thy people. However, sixteen verses later, the Old Testament God makes the explicit command to love the stranger.

LEVITICUS 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God

It is common to think that the God of the Old Testament is a God of vengeance and the God of the Old Testament is a God of love. I did a computer search in the Bible for 'vengeance' and 'love' and found the following:

Books mentioning Books mentioning Total
love vengeance Books
Old Test 26 11 39
New Test 25 6 26
Total Bible 51 17 65

The two parts of the Bible in that respect are not too different. Love is emphasised more than vengeance in both parts.
Posted by david f, Monday, 9 March 2009 12:46:09 PM
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I have often commented on the legal nature of Christianity. In the times I write about I am basically talking about Catholic because the Roman church was the only version of Christianity around.
To me this article emphasis the difference in the legal structure of the two versions of Christianity. The Catholics rule with an iron fist and allow no dissent. The Protestants are becoming more liberal in personal interpretation of worship.
In both cases it has nothing to do with the Bible. It is about how the two systems deal with someone who wishes to think outside the strict rule of (church) law
Posted by Daviy, Monday, 9 March 2009 1:12:48 PM
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so, with the old testament we're allowed to be vengeful 26/37 of the time, but with the new testament we're only allowed to be vengeful 6/31 of the time. when the numerator is 0, could someone give me a call?
Posted by bushbasher, Monday, 9 March 2009 2:31:30 PM
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Bushbred wrote: so, with the old testament we're allowed to be vengeful 26/37 of the time, but with the new testament we're only allowed to be vengeful 6/31 of the time. when the numerator is 0, could someone give me a call?

Dear Bushbred:

The figures are 11/39 and 6/26. Sorry about the formatting.

For humans the numerator is 0. According to the Bible "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord.
Posted by david f, Monday, 9 March 2009 3:01:14 PM
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I don't understand why it is okay that there is any vengeance mentioned at all. And even if the proportions quotes here are accurate, the vehemence with which they are propounded comes into it too, as does the fact that god reckons it's okay to wreak his own vengeance on his whim. The bible is a dreadful book, filled with vindictiveness. There are lots of instructions to be harsh with the slaves or to hand young girls and women over to be raped or to kill naughty children. The main concern of the god in the bible seems to be whether people worship other deities, and being jealous and vindictive if they do. Maybe it's time to jettison this book and move on.
Posted by Miranda Suzanne, Monday, 9 March 2009 3:29:29 PM
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