Yes, O2. All these problems. But applying Aristotelian logic to texts written by different authors from various cultures in many languages over several centuries thousands of years ago only makes them worse.
‘Christians are very flexible when it comes to Jesus' words’. Yes, absolutely. This is essential when they contain so many curious word pictures, historic Hebrew allusions, tricky evasions, apparent contradictions and blatant obfuscations.
Google ‘they did not understand the saying that he spoke’ in your concordance. Then see how often Jesus said ‘Let them hear who have ears to hear’.
This is why anyone reading the Bible, especially Jesus' teachings, must be extremely cautious before declaring precisely what is meant. Meg has referred, for example, to Jesus’ words to Peter about building a church on a rock. Meg’s interpretation is certainly plausible. But it is only one view held within one wing of the Christian church. As Jesus was using a metaphor, other interpretations remain open to us.
The word ‘judge’ also appears to cause you some excitement, 02. This has several meanings also. Christians are called to judge all the time but never to judge, depending on which meaning. Would you like a simpler religion, 02? So would I.
Hence reading Scripture is an ongoing challenge. Living it even more so. Most Christians find that the greater problem is not grappling with the passages we don’t understand, but obeying those we do. And most can, despite the foregoing, be understood pretty well with the help of a little scholarship, pastoral care and a Christian community.
If, however, we read Jesus with a view to ridiculing Christianity, then that would seem so easy that the fun must surely wear off pretty soon.
As to ‘These people at St Mary's may be the lost sheep! Is expelling them then, undoing God's plan?’ We shall soon see. The process now underway with the former judge may determine that Fr Kennedy and his followers are still able to remain with the Roman branch of the Catholic community. If not, they will be warmly welcomed elsewhere.

Alan - I would have just used the words logic, and honest appraisal & discussion.

The word judge causes me no excitement... wrong again... but when Jesus says "Do not Judge others" Matthew 7:1-5 and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" Matthew 7:12 and "First remove the log from your own eye..." Matthew 7:4-5 the teachings seem simple enough to me.

So when you ask "Would you like a simpler religion, 02"? Actually no. If Christianity would stop dragging about that mouldy OT it would be simpler still.

I simplified Matthew 5:17-20 for easier understanding Alan, and, it worked.

When you typed <<We shall soon see>> when I asked "These people at St Mary's may be the lost sheep! Is expelling them, undoing God's plan?" didn't you tell a little fib?

Let me simplify!

How will we know it is God's plan? I see starving people in the world, I hear people are sexually abused in religious institutions ...What's God's plan?

God's plan is hard to see, and yet, you type it so easily, without thought or understanding of what you type.

If you can see God's plan in all these things can you tell me what it is? I only asked "Is expelling them then, undoing God's plan?" Perhaps "I don't know" would be a better answer!

I know Christians say "God works in mysterious ways" but isn't that just so they don't have to honestly say "I have no idea what God is doing here"?

Finally, when you say regarding scripture "we do (understand & obey)pretty well with the help of a little scholarship, pastoral care and a Christian community" is this really true?

From my experience preachers preach literalism more than anything - How can that help you understand? With all that you have said I would have thought scholarship and pastoral care from churches isn't all that useful!

From the Christians I talk to, they haven't got a clue that oppressing homosexuals is a sin, and, that they are not entitled to commit it as professing Christians!

So much for scholarship!

alan, thanks for your straight-forward answers. i'm surprised, and appreciative. i have some quibbles, and there's plenty more i might ask you about. but for now i think you're sufficiently occupied with other posters.

You're so much easier to love, bushbasher, when you call me'cupcake' and 'treasure'... :)

RE: Judging others - God laid down the commandments, and the greatest of His teachings is to Love God and Love one another...that does not mean that we have to condone or love what goes against the teachings of Christ or His Commandments...there's the difference. Love the sinner...not the sin. I don't judge the 'sinner', just the 'sin'...

In order to choose right from wrong, you have to exercise 'free will' using an informed conscience to judge – right-from-wrong!

Don't judge others by your own actions and feelings though...I feel no outrage, anger, etc. towards homosexuals. I am disgusted by the bigotry displayed by the actions and words of the 'rent-a-crowd' who claimed to be members of St Mary's Parish, a claim contradicted by every word that spewed from their mouths afterwards. I am aware of numbers of regular parishioners who did not attend in support, some because of the presence of the 'rent-a-crowd' who involved themselves in threats and violent outbursts, provoked by media bigotry and hype, in some cases.

davidf recalls vividly who called from the crowd 2000 years ago, “Crucify Him!” It was those bl#*dy Romans...ROFL, the Jews were innocent, completely innocent bystanders, right! As for the NT, it's all a fairytale too...let's stick to the OT which has a few problems with basic human rights and decency...laws that Jesus taught were wrong and should end. How often do you stone your children? Are human sacrifices still ok? You can't be serious! Talk about gullible, if I hadn't read it I wouldn't have believed you'd said it...

As for Jesus not talking about sin or repenting in cases of immorality, Alan A, remember the woman who was being stoned for adultery? The remainder of your quote...'I do not condemn you' either, go now and sin no more... Jesus taught in many ways, including parables...to repent and be forgiven, to sin no more...

o2 you certainly can claim the right to repeat things ad nauseum...but you do abuse the privilege!

(tbc)

(Cont...)
'Christians' aren't obliged to lop-off-a-piece-of-foreskin. That's incorrect...some 'choose' it as a right-of-entry...or for medical reasons. It isn't a 'requirement' of Christianity.

Your 'Lost Sheep' outside St Mary's, exposed reasons for being there, to media. Little concerning happenings inside the church but lots of bigoted remarks against the Pope and Catholicism. We're all Lost Sheep sometimes...having-a-bad-day, lonely, sick or whatever...excommunication isn't done by the Church, it's done by ourselves, to ourselves, by choices we make...we have free will...like Fr Kennedy. If he wants to do-his-own-thing, good luck, but don't take the property or good name of the Church and use it to preach with no resemblance to the teachings of Christ...in essence, a mishmash of 'feel-good' statements-that-mean-nothing-and-go-nowhere...

Start another religion but do it on his own time and in his own place...I've no problem with that. If I squatted with my family and friends as a permanent resident in St Michael's church, it'd be considered an imposition on the congregation...if I preached about stoning their children and be-heading the infidels...I guess you'd all take a dim view of my actions then...

AlanA, I'd agree that ridiculing Christianity should quickly become tiresome, but it appears some have less challenges in their lives or other reasons to continue the practice.

As for desiring a simpler religion, how much simpler than the teachings and actions of Christ...repent, sin no more ...come follow me...keep trying, if you fail, repent, be forgiven and try again to do better the next time...there's always hope, in Christ. : )

O2 argues in contradictions...how is it God's fault when humans use their 'free will' to choose immorality and violence against one another. If we chose to follow His 'plan' there would be no such behaviour and the results around the world would be vastly different...no greed, violence, starving millions because the world has more than enough food for the world's population.

You can't have it both ways, either you make choices and take responsibility for them or you don't! If you refuse to be guided by Jesus' words, don't blame God for the mess you're in...

Meg … You use the words rent-a-crowd ad nauseam. Haven’t you condoned yourself breaking Jesus’ precise instructions in this thread?

So when you state

<<I can't imagine less likely candidates for defending the 'judge not lest thou be judged'...than o2 and bushbasher...lol. But hypocrisy may be your middle names, >>

Do Bushbasher and I know more about Christian obligations than you?

Why do you call yourself Christian? To quote you <<You can’t have it both ways>> either you follow the explicit teachings of Jesus Christ or you aren’t a Christian! Decision time!

That is why I have used direct quotes from Jesus, Meg. Look at them! Aren’t they all the areas in which you fail?

You were angry with what these attendees at St Mary’s did … What are Jesus’ express instruction to you Meg?

Matthew 5:38-42 “…Turn the Other Cheek…” You fail this in your actions, in your words and in your thoughts.

Furthermore, you fail John 8:7 ….let he who has not sinned cast the first stone….”. Have you sinned Meg? Stop throwing stones! It’s against Jesus’ teachings!

Why can’t a loudly professing Christian see their own failings, Meg? Is it your OBLIGATION as a Christian to follow Jesus’ explicit instructions?

Why do you think I have been giving the many scriptures that apply to you and your words Meg? It’s Jesus’ own explicit teachings attempting to correct you Meg!

Why do I repeat them? Meg are you so angry, that not even the precise, instructional words of Jesus himself can stop your judgements?

People at St Mary's, who object to the Pope and Religions, reflect centuries of frustration & anger at the homophobic bigotry they have had to deal with in them.

You have a couple of weeks of frustration Meg and aren’t you failing Jesus, & angry at Bushbasher and I?.... See the parallel?

You may fly the Christian flag on the outside Meg, but is what you thought was rock underneath, subsiding sand? Matthew 7: 24-27. Beware the crash Meg!

Are you letting Jesus down?