ROFL, I can't imagine less likely candidates for defending the 'judge not lest thou be judged'...than o2 and bushbasher...lol. But hypocrisy may be your middle names, huh?

Your confusion regarding Jesus is not difficult to address when seen in the context of the Trinity...Father, Son and Spirit.

Your repeated references to your newspaper bigotry don't say anything about what Bishop Bathersby did for the victim and his family, but both stated that they wanted privacy and were satisfied with the Church's response...why are they answerable to your bigoted journalism and sensationalist stories...why should they be victims of your media 'expose' as well as the alleged crime?

At the sermon on the mount, any homosexuals would have been welcomed and encouraged to repent and sin no more...told that they were forgiven for their sin and told to sin no more.

I don't have to judge people, but I do have to choose right from wrong based on an informed conscience...to choose wrong, is to sin...why are you so afraid of using the word, sin?

O2 you are very confused about the words of Matthew and exactly when all is 'accomplished'...Jesus challenged the old 'law' of the OT...and his death and resurrection, accomplished the will of God in opening for all of us the way to enter his Kingdom...Heaven.

You called the 'rent-a-crowd' 'sinners', not me, their own comments to media were what indicated they were 'rent-a-crowd', with no more interest in St Mary's than a one-day-media-circus to promote homosexuality, anti-Catholicism and anti-Papal-bigotry, were you there too?

RE:Matthew 7:12 I would expect that when I sin, others would encourage me to do what was right, and not continue to err...sin, call it what your sensibilities allow. I do unto others and wish others showed the same consideration...you know nothing of my efforts for others so don't dig yourself in any deeper than you have. Look to your own efforts, I'm not afraid to meet my maker on my record and I don't rest on my laurels, but nor do I need to broadcast them to you.

(Cont...)

I would not advise my children to experiment with drugs, alcohol or promiscuous behaviour, but have always told them that nothing will ever change the love I have for them and no problem is ever insurmountable if we tackle it together. That's what God's law is there for...to help, not harm.

My comment to Alan regarding the building of the 'Church' stated that God did NOT mean that He would build a building on top of Peter...re-read my posts (19-03-09) – the Church IS the people!

David f you seem confused as to the origin of the word Christ-ian...Jesus was and is, the Christ in Christian...His nationality is not in question, why would you assume anyone has a problem with His ethnicity? It was also His own people, Jews, who called for His crucifixion and beatings...what's your point? It was the old Hebrew laws that He challenged and refused to condone, stoning, killing and sacrificing of children...

“Why aren't I a Jew?” Are you serious? Are you saying I need a hooked nose too? The poor Romans got a bad rap in your tune...what about the good fellows who refused to harm Jesus? Hmmm...I can't accept that race or creed guarantees superiority or goodness...constantly trying to do what's right and decent might be a good start though.

Bushbasher is still looking for someone to condone his lifestyle choices and still cannot accept that Jesus challenged the 'laws' of the OT and called on his followers to 'come follow me'...as he died on the cross he said, “it is accomplished!” He challenged all that was not right about the old laws and died at the hands of His own people, He paid that price for us and our salvation rather than deny what was right … rather than condone what was wrong...

...duck? I don't think so...

ah, cupcake.

1) you're still presuming to know my lifestyle choices. you don't.

2) you presume that i'm making some claim about OT and it's role in christianity. i am not.

alan introduced OT nastiness, and asked my opinion.

i am now simply asking alan to make clear his sense of the inspiration value of OT nastiness. and i am asking alan to clarify what any of this has to do with his, your, or anyone's moral condemnation of homosexuality.

3) you claim you didn't duck. it is true, when it came to moral outrage against homosexuality, you were upright and persistent and bloody loud. but, when it came to justifying your moral outrage, you ducked.

4) i am a hypocrite? why? i am not a christian, and i am happy to judge. and i have no problem with you judging me. i am simply pointing out your inability to justify your moral judgment of homosexuality.

but, dear christian cupcake, should YOU be judging? are you quite sure who is the hypocrite here?

Meg1 wrote: David f you seem confused as to the origin of the word Christ-ian...Jesus was and is, the Christ in Christian..... It was also His own people, Jews, who called for His crucifixion and beatings...what's your point? It was the old Hebrew laws that He challenged and refused to condone, stoning, killing and sacrificing of children...

Dear Meg1,

Messiah or Christ is the herald for the millennium that brings peace on earth. Since it did not happen Jesus obviously was not the messiah. No Second Coming because the messiah is able to get it right the first time.

Leviticus 19:18 "Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against, the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD." Note the command not to be vengeful. Sixteen verses later, the Jewish God makes the explicit command to love the stranger.

LEVITICUS 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. The message of love of Jesus comes from his Jewish training where he learned the laws of love in Leviticus.

People under Roman occupation wrote the New Testament. To appeal to the gentile Romans to join his new cult the NT blamed the Jews rather than the actual people in charge, the Romans.

The NT has a woman impregnated by a ghost (like Leda or other mortals impregnated by Zeus in one form or another) The protagonist of this epic walked on water, turns water into wine, gives sight to the blind, raises the dead (after 3 days in the tomb), feeds 5000 then 4000 people with just a few fish and loaves, heals lepers, releases demon posessed people (currently they would be classed as insane) and heals paralyzed people. He then dies and is resurrected (like Mithra and other pagan Gods). It is a fairy tale book but it was effective in attracting the gullible.

Ok, some responses. First to bushbasher. Your observations, questions and criticisms of my limited answers are absolutely fair. So to elaborate: Many primitive cultures had stories of violence and slaughter to instil a sense of awe at the sacredness of life and the consequences of evil. I don’t derive any spiritual inspiration from the passages above. But as a kid they possibly influenced my understanding of the horrors of war and the need to strive for peace with justice.
The text about stoning stubborn children is a primitive exhortation to accept that obeying authority is essential for sound government in a perilous world. A child, for example, who refused to wash after contact with offal or faeces, or who irritated a sabre-toothed tiger or an enemy tribe, endangered not only himself but the group. Perhaps draconian measures were once required. Not sure. Sounds like tough love to me. (Fortunately, stoning my own disobedient children was only ever a fleeting temptation, seldom acted upon.)
No, homosexuality is not evil. I see no biblical teaching against consensual same-sex relationships. Nor any other reason why they are unacceptable. With your other observations I agree.
To Davidf, love your work. But don’t give up your day job.
To Opinionated2, why repeat your assertion “in (Matthew 5:17-20), Jesus, emphatically empowers the laws of Moses and the prophets.” What about the Friday, 20 March 3:35:08 response? Meg is right. If that explanation is reasonable, then your subsequent assertions may not be.
To Meg: We agree on biblical inspiration. But not yet on homosexuality. Nor on the principal direction of Jesus’ teaching. Jesus rarely told people to repent. That was the gig of the OT prophets and John the Baptist. Two or three times Jesus told groups of rich people to repent, but not people accused of immorality. Mark and John don’t record him using the word ever. Jesus’ message to accused individuals seems to be 1. I do not condemn you; 2. come and live with us in a new kingdom of God.
Finally, Meg, I still think St Michael’s and St Mary’s are comparable.

Alan,

I repeat things because Christians don't answer, brushing things aside and twisting the obvious words of Jesus to fit their doctrinal beliefs. Don't preachers repeat biblical messages ad nauseam? I claim the same right!

eg. John 14:28 "...because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I". This line is ignored by trinitarians! Could it be any more explicit?

Christians are very flexible when it comes to Jesus' words, many times preferring Paul's words (dump good old Jesus') and yet very inflexible when it comes to judgements of others. Why?

Anyone can hold their hand up and say they are a Christian but it is their actions, deeds, and arguments that prove that they are or not.

Ephesians 2 is not that good a choice of passages... It explains how we Gentiles can be a part of the covenants because our parents, without consent, lop a piece of genitalia off.

The most powerful being in the Universe has a foreskin collection? The most powerful being in the Universe wants us to perform an unnecessary painful operation on a newborn so we become a part of God's chosen children and open to receive his grace?

Why do Christians preach about this Dumb God? It is intellectually insulting.

To argue that it is only the 10 commandments that Jesus refers to (Matthew 5:17-20) is wrong. The 2nd most powerful being in the Universe says "ALL laws" then seperately mentions the commandments... why?

Christians can't help judging people even though there is an explicit ruling from Jesus they shouldn't do that! Either Jesus' word is "the word" or you Christians can alter it anytime and "the word" means zip!

Jesus wants "sinners" (Matthew 7:7-11) to come to him and yet when certain people attend a Church the congregations want to expel them? This is unChristian, hence the parable of "The Lost Sheep" Luke 15:4

These people at St Mary's may be the lost sheep! Is expelling them then, undoing God's plan?

Self-proclaimed Christians are such slow & selective learners!