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The Forum > Article Comments > Israel and Gaza - a testament to terrible failure > Comments

Israel and Gaza - a testament to terrible failure : Comments

By Richard Hil, published 6/1/2009

Bombing Gaza is a testament to international policy failure under which the rights of Palestinians have been systematically trampled.

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Examinator

Critics of Israel generally fall into two groups I'll call them "A" and "B." Roughly their views may be summarised as follows:

Group A:

Israel has a right to exist as a JEWISH STATE within its 1967 borders. There are two corollaries to this:

--Jewish settlers must evacuate all territories captured in the Six day war in 1967.

--Palestinian "refugees" (In most cases neither they nor their parents have ever set foot in Israel) may be entitled to some form of financial compensation but do not have a "right of return" to pre-1967 Israel.

Group B

Israel is an illegitimate entity that exists on land "stolen" from "Palestinians." The very concept of a "Jewish State" is racist. Palestinian "refugees" have more right to "return" to Israel than a Jew born in, say, Australia.

If, as I suspect, your view is more aligned with "B" than with "A" then I can see no point in our engaging any sort of discussion on this topic. I know from experience there is nothing I can write that will change your mind.

If your view is more aligned with "A" than "B" I shall attempt to respond to your question - in 350 words or less! – as soon as the 24 hour moratorium on my next post expires.

Let me know which it is. To avoid wasting your time and mine be blunt in your reply.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 1:21:51 PM
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I don't understand the caterwauling in the posts, both sides are racist, yes – so what. Racism exists all over the world, wailing that it should suddenly end now is just naïve, religious intolerance exists on both sides, yes we know again it’s not going to suddenly end.

The sides are unequal in their military power, yes and how stupid do you have to be to provoke someone who is clearly so much more powerful militarily – I have no sympathy for such idiots.

Hamas obviously have no concern for their citizens, who are clearly caught up in Hamas’s occupation, which is to fight Israel. That appears to be their reason for existing and the citizens of the West bank, poor bastards, are just pawns in their “strongman world”. I guess you can’t just give up being a tough guy terrorist and go back to being like a shoe salesman or office worker – it just doesn’t have the same ring to it does it?

Israel does seem to have concern for their citizens, though I have no idea how their leaders could survive so long politically with rockets being fired at their people without reacting. Certainly if I was a voter there, I’d vote for the mob that stops the rockets. If that happened here, we’d be in conniptions about it and demand PM Rudd fix it immediately if not sooner – why do we view the Israelis as any different.

As Julia Gillard said, “they have a right to defend themselves”, and if they do it with a really big stick, maybe others in the region will take note and leave them alone. Hamas could use all the money they get from various donors to build a decent community and get over the fact Israel exists.

miacat - how does "Mr Rudd was our last hope for Change." have anything to do with this or have I completely misuderstood what you mean?
Posted by rpg, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 2:07:38 PM
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examinator: <You ignore the vast majority of Palestinians who just want justice and peace.>

Is that the same majority that voted for Hamas? Seems like a strange way to advance the cause of justice and peace.
Posted by RohanW, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 2:33:07 PM
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Steven,

Your emotions are getting the better of your reasoning.

Neither is this complex issue appropriate to your A or B determination. It is your myopic conviction (selectively based) that precludes you thinking in other more pragmatic terms.

I have no interest to discuss the Israel/Palestinian issue in these terms as we have
a. thrashed this ground out before and
b. There is no point your myopic conviction.
c. Your loaded responses are designed to beat an opponent not discussion.

I was merely trying to say that the shrillness of your response is neither effective nor helpful to balanced understanding (resolution) this appalling situation. Then again many of your compatriots want nothing less that total capitulation and greater Israel. Surely you realize by now that converts to your (excessive) views are not to be found on this site.

As a Jew you should be well aware that force will never win against an idea (this side of extermination). Jew and Christians have seen off many a superior force what pray tell makes you think that force will eliminate the conflict now? Because your's is a chosen religion?

As a secular humanist (sort of) I see this whole thing going from bad to worse. And Israel is up to its tacky neck in it.

BTW I don't oppose Israel's existence just its unwillingness to face reality. PS that includes the Palestinian intransigence too.
Mine is a dispassionate view I support neither side, I call wrong where I see it
Posted by examinator, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 4:18:18 PM
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stevenlmeyer,

There are those critics who don't fall into either of your convenient groups, like me. For Group B I'd remove your rather loaded quotation marks from around "Palestinians", "refugees" and "stolen", there's an improvement immediately. The concept of the right of "return" of Jews to Israel is of course chauvinistic nonsense. There is a Palestinian people, Israel and its supporters can't wish them out of existence. All settler societies are, to some extent, in the Group B category you see, aren't they, like Australia, the USA and others?Israel is a colonial project 100 years past its time. The crime has been committed and the injustice recognised, but it is still open to redress.

So we move to acknowledgement of Group A proposition as a basis of negotiations, which seems reasonable to me, whatever the fantasies of Hamas supporters Israel won't disappear. A corollary for you , if descendants of displaced Palestinians have no "right of return" to Israel, neither do Jews born outside of Israel.
Posted by mac, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 5:18:04 PM
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Aussie telco Telstra is giving those with families in Gaza the opportunity to call for free.

""Telstra customers in Australia will be able to call free-of-charge from their home phones to check on the wellbeing of immediate family members in the Gaza area," Mr Trujillo said.
This offer will apply for calls made from 12.00am AEST on Wednesday 7 January 2009, and finish 12.00am AEST on Thursday 15 January 2009. The offer applies to calls with the area code 0011 970 8."

http://www.telstra.com.au/abouttelstra/media/announcements_article.cfm?ObjectID=44282
Posted by MX2, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 6:31:43 PM
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