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The Forum > Article Comments > Israel and Gaza - a testament to terrible failure > Comments

Israel and Gaza - a testament to terrible failure : Comments

By Richard Hil, published 6/1/2009

Bombing Gaza is a testament to international policy failure under which the rights of Palestinians have been systematically trampled.

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As a qualified political scientist and historian in my mature age, Richard, feel you are spot on with your appraisal.

Yet as with myself, Richard, you are probably not surprised at times to be called dangerously left-wing.

Yet though an agrararian activist during the Great Depression, still like to feel to be middle of the road between our two Aussie major parties.

What concerns me so much right now, Richard, is indeed the tendency to go too far right instead of staying centre, which has certainly also proven the way with George W Bush et al, and the tendency to protect small dangerously armed little nations like Israel instead of having a United Nations not at the beck and call of the world's strongest power but by a Kantian-style Federation of Nations.

As one going on 88, might say that the foresight of today's leaders could do well to be straightened out by the historical insight usually only found as even the Greeks might have said, in democratic academia.
Posted by bushbred, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 10:32:03 AM
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Let's be clear on something.

Hamas is not concerned with the welfare of Palestinians. Hamas' goal is to kill Jews. In fact Hamas is more explicit about its genocidal intentions towards Jews than Hitler was in Mein Kampf.

Here is a link to a website that displays an English translation of the Hamas charter:

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Quote:

"Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. ….The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised."

And what does "vanquishing" the Jews mean to Hamas? What is "Allah's victory?"

From the charter:

"…the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem)."

You can't get much more explicit than that.

Everything Hamas does is consistent with its charter. Hamas' rocket and mortar fire into Israel is not a political strategy. It is for now at least, the best option Hamas has for carrying out its program of killing Jews. The fact that it is an ineffectual option does not alter the intent.

It is arguable that the very ineffectualness of the Hamas rocket attacks betrays the intent. Why bother to do something so counter-productive unless your goal is to take advatange advantage of any opportunity, no matter how slight, to kill Jews?

ANY ANALYSIS OF THE GAZA SITUATION THAT IGNORES HAMAS' SELF-PROCLAIMED GENOCIDAL INTENT MISSES THE POINT.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 10:59:51 AM
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BUSHBRED..... with all due respect for your advanced years and considerable study.... what is wrong with you?

From the Article:

<<Australian journalist, Antony Lowenstein, states that the bombing of civilians is a war crime>>

GOOD.. he realizes that the 6000 rockets launched at Israeli women and children in Southern Israel is.. A WAR CRIME... has he condemned these?

BUSHY.. can YOU condemn Hamas as loudly as you are condemning Israel?

If you want to be BALANCED there is a simple way of doing it:

1/ Speak about BOTH sides..not just the Israelis.
2/ Speak about the actual objectives AND methods of each side.

Steven has pointed out clearly..unmistakably the ugly genocidal terrorist basis of HAMAS.. I've been doing the same thing in various posts in many threads over the past few days and on many occasion over years....

BUT... is it thickheadedness or denial which prevents you and various others from UNDERSTANDING that 'obliterate/kill' means just that!

MOTIVE.. "Hamas motive is to kill as many Jews of any age as they can."

METHOD... it is to launch explosive rockets indiscriminantly at population centres without regard for accuracy.. ie... they JUST want to KILL JEWS.

IF... IF...IF the Israeli military adopted the SAME motives and methods it would be 'game over' in about a week... Gaza would be no more.

I'm afraid I have to become quite bold here and actually REBUKE you.. yes.. REBUKE...and the author and all those who deny the difference in motive and method of the 2 sides.

In the NAME OF TRUTH I rebuke..... all those who do NOT admit that the Hamas Charter is...IS.. a document for GENOCIDE.

In the name of BALANCE I rebuke all those who only focus on the immediate tragic consequences of the attack on Gaza withOUT paying equal regard to the attacks on Israel with rockets.

I feel the Israeli government would simply be giving the middle finger salute to the morons who don't see this as it really is.
Posted by Polycarp, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 11:51:46 AM
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Unconscionable or at Odds.

Shellshocked and we project Panic.

If Australia cant do something to stop this slaughter there is no point in any of our self-respecting slogans. Fair Go - Hopefulness - Mindfulness - Inclusiveness.... Problem Solving.... Our own Dream of a Better World is turned in on itself. It is WE as Fake.

Accepting this Bloodbath in Gaza as Okay is INSANITY. Like shooting Bufflalo who it is known rarely charge less provoked. Whose hoodwinked, starring stupefied, benumbed?

No matter what you believe, the unstable world is today, reflecting its own truth. Be it our role in Africa, or our Issues with the differences between understanding the troubles inside the Arab World.

Mr Rudd was our last hope for Change.

We can do no more when we are surrounded by War after War after War.

The Moment IS NOW.

Milions and Millions and Millions of people dying, laying sick on this planet.

The rise of insurgence is about their own sense of survival. They do plea for our grace. Equity. Inter-cultural understanding. Their pleas are mocked, they are treated by us with mere riddicle.

Our life in 'mainstream' antics seen as more by one saved over theirs and, we wonder why they have taken underground mask to arms.

We conquor and divide.

The Lip Service around overcoming social ills we are ourselves are creating, is pityless, upityness and shameful.

As many, many, many, many layman, citizens, normal peoples including Jeanette Winterson, Judith Wright and Boineers tell us we are [with knowledge] at the 'leading edge of breakthrough solutions to the global ecological and social collapse imperiling our world.

WE - LACK LEADERS AND THE POLITCAL WILL.

This is our inconvenient truth. All Bets are Off without the struggle, unless this violence in Gaza is Stopped - Now!

I don't care whose fault it is, I have a critical ear for both sides and the issue is Equities at two sides of the Coin.

http://www.miacat.com
.
Posted by miacat, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 12:17:17 PM
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Richard,
This is indeed an objective look at the situation. And I tend to agree that the Middle East is today a blot on western civility and or civilization. People are indeed the or should be the central focus not two recalcitrant political groupings pride.

Steven
Do you really believe that if Homas were to alter thee 'genocidal intents' anything would change? I speak here of the 500K Jews who illegally occupy Palestinian lands? Time for a clear head.

Do you understand rhetoric and its purpose? Israel gives daily to the radical hot heads reason to continue the jihad. You ignore the vast majority of Palestinians who just want justice and peace.

Likewise it’s tacit support to the extremist settlers who want all of Palestine encourages these zealots to push the envelope.

I am not anti Jew/Israel just their hypocritical intent in this area.

Need I point out to you that this is Australia and that such irrational outbursts hardy help THIS country and its inter racial concerns.

My daughter is Jewish but after living in Israel for some years has returned in her words “so long as Israel continues with its racist policies I will never return or support them….I am an Aussie and my allegiance is here.”

Polycarp,
Your fear of all things Muslim no matter how expressed is extreme, irrational and dogma based. Some time you should sit down with the Bible and underline all genocidal commands it contains. If you believe the letter of the law as you seem to claim (no room for variation) then yours and Steven's God is indeed a bloodthirsty ghoul one hardly worthy of worship... By your standards there is little difference between the Greek and Nordic pantheons (change the sundry gods to angels,saints etc)...then again I suspect its your flawed interpretations that are at fault.
Posted by examinator, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 12:28:13 PM
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Wake up, Polycarp, why we knock Israel so much, is that she has become a tiny nation with too much power, including the latest in nuclear warheads - while the Arabs only have the odd rocket, the difference probably a half dozen kills for the Arabs, and possibly fifty times as much for the Israelis.

Further, as you already know, our academic advice is to encourage nations to do what the United Nations was originally formed to do, not just to rely on one strong nation like America, but by all truly democratic nations, which now should include most Eastern nations.

Finally, Polycarp, still please remember that it was a Jew and Israeli supporter Henry Kissinger, who as US Minister of State at the time, warned Richard Nixon that to allow a nuclear armed Israel was only asking for a torrid ME future between Jews and Arabs -

and possibly a WW3, one could add.

Regards, BB, WA.
Posted by bushbred, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 12:59:11 PM
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Examinator

Critics of Israel generally fall into two groups I'll call them "A" and "B." Roughly their views may be summarised as follows:

Group A:

Israel has a right to exist as a JEWISH STATE within its 1967 borders. There are two corollaries to this:

--Jewish settlers must evacuate all territories captured in the Six day war in 1967.

--Palestinian "refugees" (In most cases neither they nor their parents have ever set foot in Israel) may be entitled to some form of financial compensation but do not have a "right of return" to pre-1967 Israel.

Group B

Israel is an illegitimate entity that exists on land "stolen" from "Palestinians." The very concept of a "Jewish State" is racist. Palestinian "refugees" have more right to "return" to Israel than a Jew born in, say, Australia.

If, as I suspect, your view is more aligned with "B" than with "A" then I can see no point in our engaging any sort of discussion on this topic. I know from experience there is nothing I can write that will change your mind.

If your view is more aligned with "A" than "B" I shall attempt to respond to your question - in 350 words or less! – as soon as the 24 hour moratorium on my next post expires.

Let me know which it is. To avoid wasting your time and mine be blunt in your reply.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 1:21:51 PM
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I don't understand the caterwauling in the posts, both sides are racist, yes – so what. Racism exists all over the world, wailing that it should suddenly end now is just naïve, religious intolerance exists on both sides, yes we know again it’s not going to suddenly end.

The sides are unequal in their military power, yes and how stupid do you have to be to provoke someone who is clearly so much more powerful militarily – I have no sympathy for such idiots.

Hamas obviously have no concern for their citizens, who are clearly caught up in Hamas’s occupation, which is to fight Israel. That appears to be their reason for existing and the citizens of the West bank, poor bastards, are just pawns in their “strongman world”. I guess you can’t just give up being a tough guy terrorist and go back to being like a shoe salesman or office worker – it just doesn’t have the same ring to it does it?

Israel does seem to have concern for their citizens, though I have no idea how their leaders could survive so long politically with rockets being fired at their people without reacting. Certainly if I was a voter there, I’d vote for the mob that stops the rockets. If that happened here, we’d be in conniptions about it and demand PM Rudd fix it immediately if not sooner – why do we view the Israelis as any different.

As Julia Gillard said, “they have a right to defend themselves”, and if they do it with a really big stick, maybe others in the region will take note and leave them alone. Hamas could use all the money they get from various donors to build a decent community and get over the fact Israel exists.

miacat - how does "Mr Rudd was our last hope for Change." have anything to do with this or have I completely misuderstood what you mean?
Posted by rpg, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 2:07:38 PM
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examinator: <You ignore the vast majority of Palestinians who just want justice and peace.>

Is that the same majority that voted for Hamas? Seems like a strange way to advance the cause of justice and peace.
Posted by RohanW, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 2:33:07 PM
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Steven,

Your emotions are getting the better of your reasoning.

Neither is this complex issue appropriate to your A or B determination. It is your myopic conviction (selectively based) that precludes you thinking in other more pragmatic terms.

I have no interest to discuss the Israel/Palestinian issue in these terms as we have
a. thrashed this ground out before and
b. There is no point your myopic conviction.
c. Your loaded responses are designed to beat an opponent not discussion.

I was merely trying to say that the shrillness of your response is neither effective nor helpful to balanced understanding (resolution) this appalling situation. Then again many of your compatriots want nothing less that total capitulation and greater Israel. Surely you realize by now that converts to your (excessive) views are not to be found on this site.

As a Jew you should be well aware that force will never win against an idea (this side of extermination). Jew and Christians have seen off many a superior force what pray tell makes you think that force will eliminate the conflict now? Because your's is a chosen religion?

As a secular humanist (sort of) I see this whole thing going from bad to worse. And Israel is up to its tacky neck in it.

BTW I don't oppose Israel's existence just its unwillingness to face reality. PS that includes the Palestinian intransigence too.
Mine is a dispassionate view I support neither side, I call wrong where I see it
Posted by examinator, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 4:18:18 PM
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stevenlmeyer,

There are those critics who don't fall into either of your convenient groups, like me. For Group B I'd remove your rather loaded quotation marks from around "Palestinians", "refugees" and "stolen", there's an improvement immediately. The concept of the right of "return" of Jews to Israel is of course chauvinistic nonsense. There is a Palestinian people, Israel and its supporters can't wish them out of existence. All settler societies are, to some extent, in the Group B category you see, aren't they, like Australia, the USA and others?Israel is a colonial project 100 years past its time. The crime has been committed and the injustice recognised, but it is still open to redress.

So we move to acknowledgement of Group A proposition as a basis of negotiations, which seems reasonable to me, whatever the fantasies of Hamas supporters Israel won't disappear. A corollary for you , if descendants of displaced Palestinians have no "right of return" to Israel, neither do Jews born outside of Israel.
Posted by mac, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 5:18:04 PM
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Aussie telco Telstra is giving those with families in Gaza the opportunity to call for free.

""Telstra customers in Australia will be able to call free-of-charge from their home phones to check on the wellbeing of immediate family members in the Gaza area," Mr Trujillo said.
This offer will apply for calls made from 12.00am AEST on Wednesday 7 January 2009, and finish 12.00am AEST on Thursday 15 January 2009. The offer applies to calls with the area code 0011 970 8."

http://www.telstra.com.au/abouttelstra/media/announcements_article.cfm?ObjectID=44282
Posted by MX2, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 6:31:43 PM
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Hmm... Say I was your neighbour. Every day or so I walked over to your house & punched one of your kids just because I don't like you.

You come out and get angry at me, but being politically Correct you don't punch me back. You call the police. After a few hours the police turn up and do a drive by in your street. as they cant see anything they go back to the station. I see them leave & I come over & punch your kids again. For calling the police. You call the police again & they come & ask me not to punch the kids again. When They leave I come over to you house again & punch your wife & the kids.

This time you punch me & knock out a few teeth. The whole neighbourhood get up in arms over you punching me & they stage a demonstration in front of my house to condem you for punching me.

Is that how it works?
Posted by Jayb, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 8:46:07 PM
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Bushbred,

Any middle-of-the-roader would be sympathetic to the cause of the Palestinians until the first intifada when it became obvious that the Palestinian leadership is not interested in setting up a nation.

Since then, it is difficult to turn the clock back. Even Palestinian Mohammed Dahlan, head of security has admitted that Hamas's 'Sole Strategy is Destruction and Chaos'

“Hamas is one of the worst organizations in the region. People are afraid of the Islamists and no one in Gaza dares to express criticism. Otherwise they face imprisonment or even death. Just like Israel, Hamas shows no consideration for ordinary people -- its fighters fire rockets right from the heart of residential areas”

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,599459,00.html

Hamas’ mandate from “Allah” is to destroy Jews first, then all non-Islamists later. There is no way Hamas is going to agree to a cease fire. The only way is to send them to ‘paradise’ where 72 virgins await them
Posted by Philip Tang, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 10:37:54 PM
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the earth would be harmonious without all the stupid waring humans
Posted by kensho, Tuesday, 6 January 2009 11:27:26 PM
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Kensho - you should start by eliminating youself

Before the Palestinean refugees, there was the Jewish refugees, who was kicked out of their homes in Judea (now renamed West Bank) by the Muslim conquerers.

These people just hates each other, there had been so many war between these 2 people throughout history, andI think both of them have some rights to the land.

However it is the lunatics on both side at the moment that are causing the current conflict, which was started by Hamas' rockets. I like JayB's analogy on this. Hamas does not cares for its citizens, they are happy that muslim children dies, if it could get a few people to sympathise with their cause

Some people just like to see the world burn
Posted by dovif2, Wednesday, 7 January 2009 7:48:52 AM
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mac

Most Palestinian "refugees" live in the land in which they, their parents and often their grandparents were born. They are not "refugees" in the usual sense of the word.

Follow this link to see the definition of a "Palestinian refugee."

http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/whois.html

It is an extraordinarily wide definition. Were similar definitions to apply to other groups my children would be "refugees" from Germany and half of all Israelis would be "refugees" from various Arab countries. Many people born in Australia and the US would be "refugees" from countries all over the world.

Among Palestinians, as the UN definition explains, "refugee" is an HEREDITARY TITLE passed down through the "male line." That is how the 900,000 Palestinian refugees of 1948 became 4.6 million "refugees" in 2009.

There is no denying that most Palestinians live in wretched circumstances – as do people in many parts of the world who do not receive UNRWA aid. WHY THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO BUILD LIVES FOR THEMSELVES IN THE LANDS OF THEIR, AND THEIR PARENTS' BIRTH, IS AN INTERESTING QUESTION beyond the scope of this post.

Perhaps Palestinians living in Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon should receive compensation because their parents, (grandparents? How far back do we go?) were refugees in 1948. But most Palestinian "refugees" today are not refugees any more than most Israelis, Australians or Americans today are refugees.

Hence my use of quotes when using the word "refugee."

Enclosing "Palestinian" in quotes was a typo.

Most Palestinians outside Israel are victims of persecution and oppression in the lands of their birth. Their lot in Israel, while not great, is mostly better than that of non-Israeli Palestinians.

Examinator

Do you accept the following two propositions?

--Israel has a right to exist as an independent JEWISH STATE within its 1967 borders.

--The descendants of Palestinian refugees of 1946-8 do not have a "right of return" to pre-1967 Israel. (They may have a right to financial compensation but that is a different matter)

If you do we can have a discussion. If not there is no point.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Wednesday, 7 January 2009 11:36:55 AM
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As a Christian that has actually visited Palestine/Israel( with an open mind) & personally witnessed the racist attitude of the average Israeli minor officials- soldiers-citizens, not only directed at their Arab cousins but also at the other non Arab, non Jewish inhabitants, one can only surmise there is some hidden conscious problem?
Israel exists in its present arrogant/aggressive political form only because of its complete unconditional support( financial-military) by the government of the USA.
No doubt both sides of the political equation:- Arab/Jew, are equaly to blame for the present unsolvable situation. Neither side can see the others point of view, but one thing is certain military force will not solve the problem.
An unconditional cease fire must be implemented immediatly!
The United Nations must carry out its obligations & completely re-assess the original 1948 agreement. Both sides must be forced to the negotiating table & be forced to accept a re-negotiated, two separate
country agreements, said to be fair & equitable to both countries. The US government having had their fair share of negotiating with singular failure should butt out & hand over completely to the UN.
This UN negotiation backed up with the full support of the world nations that comprise the UN must be effected urgently to heal, once & for all time, this festering sore on the body of the democratic world.
Posted by Jack from Bicton, Wednesday, 7 January 2009 1:49:35 PM
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stevenlmeyer,

I agree that the UNRWA definition of "refugee" is extremely unrealistic and impractical given the situation now.

You write, "Israel has a right to exist as an independent "JEWISH STATE" within its 1967 borders", this is an acceptable compromise.However, I have some reservations, what does the term "Jewish State" mean and what are the implications for non-Jews within its borders?
Israel has enormous military power compared with the Palestinians, who, for all practical purposes are defenceless,and pushed into ghettos. Why indeed would Israel change its policy of expansion and expulsion of Palestinians from their lands? It's worked well so far,at this rate your Group A solution will be void very soon. Those that support it will have to demonstrate that the Israeli government is(in good faith) considering a return to the 1967 borders as an option and not as a smoke screen.
Posted by mac, Wednesday, 7 January 2009 2:52:35 PM
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Steven makes an excellent point about 'hereditary' status of 'refugee'...that idea is ludicrous. I'd like to underline that the only refugee's are the ORIGINAL ones ... who fled in 1948.

HELPFUL DOCUMENTS. which make interesting reading about how the different perspectives between Arab and Jew and "West" arose.

PEEL REPORT.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/peel1.html

Among the reasons given for a 1936 race disturbance was this:

5) Arab alarm at the continued Jewish purchase of land;

I draw the readers attention to the important word 'purchase'.

ANGLO AMERICAN COMMITTEE OF ENQUIRY

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/angch01.asp

3/ BALFOUR DECLARATION.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/balfour.asp

It is abundantly clear that the following is recognized.

1/ The Land of Palestine was foreably taken by Arab interests historically. (637)

2/ Jewish Home Land aspirations were based on purchased land.

THE OBJECTIVES of all the reports were the same.

I) Safe haven for Jews.
II) No diminished rights for non Jews in Palestine.
III) The Government of Palestine should be neither Jewish nor Arab.

COMMENT. While these might seem laudable and well intended ideals, human nature being what it is, was/is the achilles heel in it's success.

HISTORY..... Like a river, takes the course of least resistance, and it appears that the transformation of the region known as Palestine, has become, and is increasingly becoming, a complete Jewish homeland and State.

The placement and populations of West Bank settlements now make it both politically and practically a defacto Jewish State all over.
As was the White settlement of Australia and the displacement of Aboriginals.. so it is with modern Israel. We are witnessing our own history replayed in living color.
Posted by Polycarp, Wednesday, 7 January 2009 6:01:44 PM
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"Let’s first investigate the recent cease-fire between Israel and Hamas. The cease-fire began in June 2008. The terms were as follows:

1. Israel would drastically reduce its military blockade of Gaza.
2. Israel would halt all military incursions into Gaza.
3. Hamas would halt all rocket attacks into Israel.

From the outset of the cease-fire, Israel did little to ease its military blockade. As a result, Gazans continued to suffer from a lack of food, fuel, financial aid, electricity, clean water, medical supplies, and more. This has been, inarguably, an attack on innocent Palestinian civilians."

Source: If Americans only knew
Posted by MX2, Thursday, 8 January 2009 6:28:05 AM
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From a scientific point of view, you are well on the right track, Jack from Bicton.

Trouble is, Jack, too many of our OlO's simply regard such science as part of left-wing social science.

The point is, considering that right-wing commonsense as they call it has proven a failure, where or how do we find the answer?

Cheers, BB, WA.
Posted by bushbred, Thursday, 8 January 2009 1:57:24 PM
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Steven,
You and I also disagree as to what a discussion is.

A discussion with pre-conditions to the subject is a lecture. Your conditions indicate you have a fixed opinion to which you are prepared to impart but not listen.

I might add it is assumptive on your part that your opinion is superior to mine and arrogance that all you need to do is explain the “errors(?)” in my reasoning.

I am disappointed that you consider my intelligence so poorly as to persist with your tactics involving such patently obvious logic traps.
Obviously I have more respect for you and your opinion than you have for mine.

Under those circumstances I retain my original stance not to waste either of our time on this topic.
Posted by examinator, Thursday, 8 January 2009 3:31:25 PM
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stevenlmeyer-Polycarp:- The 1967 border was an Israeli definition following their success in the skirmish of that year. The 1948 border is the only legitimate Israel/Palestine border ratified by the UN.
Israel has consistently defied/denied UN resolutions that did not coincide with their martial beliefs, ably supported by the US Government.
It can be safely stated: that at the very least, some 50% of the present Jewish population of Israel are recent migrants, quite unlike the Palestinian Arabs who have lived there from time immemorial. The 1948 Arab refugees were forcably driven out of Palestine by the invading Zionists, in very similar circumstances to the fleeing European refugees from the German invasion in 1940. The major difference being, following the war's end these European refugees were re-settled, for the mainpart, in their country of origin. Not so the refugees from Palestine, they are still in limbo:-

1): The border dispute must be re-negotiated upon the official 1948 UN
partition.
2): The inalienable right of the 1948 Palestinian Arab refugees to return to the land of their origin must be applied, without prejudice.
3): The Jewish settlements in the occupied zone must be completely dismantled.
If these simple common sense actions were taken, then rest assured a huge step forward would have been made to ensure lasting peace in the Middle East.
Posted by Jack from Bicton, Thursday, 8 January 2009 4:21:20 PM
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Jack from Bicton,
The equitable nature of your observation is obvious and if possible, I would agree.
The one exception would be item 3
I would suggest that an orderly transfer of the developments on the occupied territories to the Palestinian would go a long way to providing restitution for the civilian property damaged during assorted "Israeli incursions" and subsequent imposed 3rd world conditions.

Now to the reality, Israel was born of a flawed premise by zealotic forces and western guilt.

Part of Israel's internal issues is it's political in ability to hold sway over its more extreme elements. Namely the settlers and the religious/racist assumptions they hold. My daughter who spent five years in Israel came home with tales of the day to day excesses (documented proofs of these excesses are available from other reputable sources.) that underpins Steven’s central plank of Israel as a JEWISH state.

The treatment of Israeli Arabs is by any standards victimization and if your solution was forced that significant minority of “orthodox (fundamentalist Jews) would simply turn on the Arabs for a repeat performance 1945-9. Even though there is a solid debate by a large minority of Israelis who believe in a secular state there is not enough political will to enforce either a return to their mandated borders or an orderly repatriation. Under those circumstances it would be a brave Arab who tried to return or claim legal property. Even the US embassy is alleged to be on stolen ground.

A more likely scenario if enforced is that the extremist forces would take control and nuclear action would be a real possibility. Such is the bloody minded mind set amongst the Israeli extremists.

I believe that reparation should be paid to all those Arabs that can show legitimate ownership of property and land regardless of the generation. (The legal precedent is clear … title can only legally pass when the title is clear). This is similar to decedents of Jewish WW2 victims reclaiming stolen assets
Posted by examinator, Thursday, 8 January 2009 5:57:32 PM
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From Bushbred, part quoting John Falsoner on early Israeli Palestinian problems per WEST Australian, January 6, '009.

Quoting history, Falconer is right that a strong UN at the time gave the only answer -

that the Palestine area must be fairly partitioned between the Jews and Arabs, and left under International Control.

From Falconer - but the was in the detail and the Arab position largely brushed aside.

Thus with American help plus US dollars the tiny state of modern Israel was born.

From Falconer - if the UN had insisted that the already battling Arab state had been given even part similar help as the Israelies, things would have surely turned out better between them.

From Falconer - why the UN should now take most of the blame possibly, is that the US in its global position may have found it hard to be an honest broker.

As a probable message carrier, one finds it hard to forget about the parents of the present Israelies went through back in the days of the horrific Nazi death camps.

Historically, however, what has caused me to remain defiant has been the foolishness of the Western world in letting the Israelies go militarialist atomic.

Admiration does go to Henry Kissinger who as a Jew and a high ranking political scientist, as well as Minister of State under Richard Nixon gave warning that if Israel was allowed to go Nuko, the balance of power that it would hold over the Middle East would not only cause untold hatred from Islamics, but possibly bring on a WW3.

Finally, we need so much today to be again reminded how we have let the UN become pretty well a laughing stock, failing to remind ourselves that both the United Nations and the former League of Nations arose from late Seventeen Century Kantian philosophy from which grew the belief in a future Federation of Democratic Nations to Preserve Peace.

Unfortunately while the League crumbled under British single-power dominance, pretty well the same has happened with Pax Americana always wanting Condoleeza Rice to speak for the UN
Posted by bushbred, Saturday, 10 January 2009 5:23:10 PM
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Those people that DO call themselves palestinian, like that twat of a wife of the Jordanian king, are subscribing to a made-up, British ideal.

Those morons in hamas and other loony factions constantly forget that whenever Israel gets attacked,the response is usually in spades to the detriment of the attackers civilian population. This is because hamas members are pitiful, primitive thinking, cowardly individuals...every single one.

Simple solution, hamas. Don't attack Israel. You will get f#@&ed over mightily! Innocent people will suffer. Shame on those stupid "palestinians" for letting hamas run wild. Shame on their sympathisers. The definition of insanity is to continue to do the same thing expecting a different result. HAMAS is full of insane people a.k.a. oxygen thieves. So no surprises there...

HAMAS and all the epsilon sub-moron factions are an embarrassment to all intelligent people everywhere and appeal to those only suitable for use as target practice.

Perhaps they require further subjugation?
Posted by tRAKKA, Monday, 12 January 2009 11:44:24 AM
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"Hamas is not concerned with the welfare of Palestinians. Hamas' goal is to kill Jews. In fact Hamas is more explicit about its genocidal intentions towards Jews than Hitler was in Mein Kampf."

stevenlmeyer,

A simple observation I would make is that those who talk the loudest are generally the ones you have to worry about least. To me, while Hamas undoubtedly would like Israel to relocate (preferably into the Mediterranean), they are no more than militant forward scouts, probing away at Israel's resolve looking for openings and weaknesses. They do not (yet) have the firepower to seriously worry Israel.

If I was an Israeli I think I'd be more worried about those parts of the Middle East that are not outwardly telegraphing their intentions. I’m sure Israel knows this and are making an example of the Gazans (not unlike Nazis did to resistance fighters and their supporters in WWII) as a statement to protect their borders. Unfortunately, the ordinary Gazans are only moderately guilty bystanders in the tragedy. And, yes, Hamas are not concerned for the welfare of Gazans unless they can be drafted to the cause of militant Islam.

The bottom line is that Israel has to be very careful that it does not overdo it – if they do they will lose the respect of the international community as well as to embolden the Islamic extremists to greater acts of militancy. But, then again, the situation is so bad over there that it might not matter what anyone does now.
Posted by RobP, Sunday, 18 January 2009 2:39:33 PM
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RobP wrote:

"…those who talk the loudest are generally the ones you have to worry about least."

Not always true. Hitler may not have been as explicit about his intentions towards Jews as is Hamas but he certainly spoke loudly.

"…while Hamas undoubtedly would like Israel to relocate…"

As their charter makes clear Hamas would like to exterminate Jews. That makes the location of Israel moot.

"…But, then again, the situation is so bad over there that it might not matter what anyone does now."

It may well be that nuclear-armed Israel has only two choices. It can die quietly. Or it can go down guns blazing taking as many of its enemies as possible with it along with over a third of the world's oil pumping capacity.

Which option do you think they'd choose?

If you thought petrol prices were high in 2008 see what happens after a nuclear war in the Middle-East.

On the other hand deterrence sometimes does work. Hizbullah supposedly won in 2006. That's what they and all their friends have been saying.

By all accounts Hizbullah now has more and better missiles than it had then, It could probably have done considerable damage to Tel Aviv had it loosed its arsenal on Israel.

But Hizbullah is the dog that did not bark in this conflict. No fusillade of rockets rained down on Israel from the north. When a few old katyushas did land on Israel from Lebanon both Hizbullah and the Lebanese Government fell over themselves to assure Israel "it wasn't them what done it."

Then again I doubt the Lebanese people would have thanked Hizbullah for landing them another war with Israel.

My guess is that Hamas will declare victory in this conflict no matter what happens. But, like Hizbullah, it will be careful not to provoke Israel too much in future.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Sunday, 18 January 2009 3:47:58 PM
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Poor HAMAS they are so hard done by. The Isrealies are giving them a pounding. pity about the school & the UN though. Hmmm... then again, maybe we should have a look at what really happened at the UN Depot.

Here is the clip.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXXUOs27lI&feature=related

At least they waited untill they were out of the compound.

Innocent women & children? Hmmm... Another clip.

ttp://au.youtube.com/watch?v=h_ydoKV86So

I don't understand why they don't show this on TV for everyone to see.
instead of only what the Isrealies do.
Posted by Jayb, Sunday, 18 January 2009 5:53:18 PM
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"It may well be that nuclear-armed Israel has only two choices. It can die quietly. Or it can go down guns blazing taking as many of its enemies as possible with it along with over a third of the world's oil pumping capacity.

Which option do you think they'd choose?"

stevenlmeyer,

I imagine if Israel felt like it was being killed at the hands of an Arab country it wouldn't hesitate to use a nuclear bomb. At least in the current paradigm. In 10-20 years who knows how Israel will see itself in the world and how things will pan out.

-- -- --

It makes sense that Hizbollah did not join in with Hamas as that would have upped the ante considerably. I imagine either the Arab countries are worried about Israel using a nuke or, as you suggest, domestic political support in Gaza and the West Bank is not as robust as the militant Arab leaders would have everyone believe.
Posted by RobP, Sunday, 18 January 2009 7:44:42 PM
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