The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > So, where are all these Christians? > Comments

So, where are all these Christians? : Comments

By Peter Grimley, published 21/10/2008

There is a wealth of wisdom in the Gospels, if you just ignore the stuff about gods and angels, heaven, hell and demons.

  1. Pages:
  2. Page 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. 5
  7. 6
  8. All
Interesting...

Here are three more authoritative quotes from the Bible:

1. Matthew 19:21 - King James Bible
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

2. Exodus 22:18 - King James Bible
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

3. Genesis 1:1 - King James Bible
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

As a modern God-fearing Christian, which of these three are you going to cherry-pick to believe: the one that will make you destitute; the one that will land you in jail charged with murder; or the one that has no practical consequences whatsoever? Surely this is the reason for the current interest in Creationism -- it's the one remaining Biblical claim that a Christian can hold to without appearing really, really, dangerous and/or stupid. There is no real rise in Creationism: it just looks that way because all the beliefs that once went with it have collapsed from the weight of their own absurdity.
Posted by Jon J, Tuesday, 21 October 2008 6:19:42 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
There is an old saying about Christianity (I do not know whom to credit for it) to the effect: if the same behavioral message has been preached for 2000 years with no visible improvement on the audience, then surely there must be something wrong with either the messenger or the message. Jesus' message about "loving your neighbout etc". has been preached by an untold number of messenger, including the man himself with no lasting effect on the listeners, so the only thing left to blame for the ineffectiveness of the message is the message itself.
The message, the commandment is unnatural. It is so artificial that if it should happenstance to appear, it would not survive in the natural world.
The spirit of man needs the challenges an opposition, a conflict, an argument, even a disaster provides to feel alive and to evolve. Any new religious philosophy (even Jesuans) will have to incorporate that realisation.
Posted by Alfred, Tuesday, 21 October 2008 6:40:31 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
A rather rambling essay that does not actually address anything.
The 'apostle's creed' spells out Christianity. If one does not accept all that is stated within that creed, then one cannot justifiably claim to be a Christian, irrespective of lifestyle; good works; and interpersonal relationships. Indeed the central thrust of mainstream christianity is that salvation cannot be obtained by good works alone - i.e. without the acceptance of Christ as 'God's intermediary'. I do not accept the tenets of that creed, so am ipso facto not a Christian, even though my ethical life fully conforms with the various admonitions accredited to Jesus. I have no belief in an afterlife; little but contempt for the numerous church hierachies; and I find the very notion of original sin nonsensical.
The question then arises - do we need Jesus at all? The commonly understood christian ethic is fully explicable (and indeed derivable from philosophical first principles) in terms of natural selection imperatives.
The notion, totally without any corroborating evidence whatsoever, of a 'God' writhing in agony on a cross in some sort of 'expiation' for everyone's moral transgressions is a nonsense - a ludicrous and primitive notion - a notion that has been the starting point for two thousand years of literal hell on earth for countless millions of innocent people, many of whom carried the added burden of 'original sin' throughout their lives and thus tormentd by guilt and exploited by priests; pastors; ministers; and the like. The even more influential and even less substantiated notion of this 'god' rising from the dead and promising to return at some future date to sort out the follies committed in his name is a nonsense on stilts.
We do not need Jesus or any other dead gods. Our intellect and naturally selected tendencies are all that are needed to establish our own heaven on earth and to cope with (or even embrace) our certain eventual existential anhilation.
Posted by GYM-FISH, Tuesday, 21 October 2008 6:44:42 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Peter, a self-styled guru or do you have real wisdom to offer?

I’m afraid your proposition of Jesus as urban legend doesn’t wash. You have called him variously a “man of his times”, “superstitious” and a “sublime teacher” (consistency demands a “1st century mythical hero”, “a superstition” or “a sublime story”).

Using your test of authenticity, I wonder if you could prove the existence of any figures we hold dear to the historical record.

Socrates leaps to the fore. The founder of Western philosophy, - an ellusive and tragi-comic figure who eschewed writing as being beneath a philosopher. Shame.

Without Plato, we would have missed such gems as the value of concentrating more on friendships and a sense of true community as the way forward for civilisation.

“Values like caring for others, and being kind, compassionate and generous;" You’ve heard of him?

Matthew 20:24:

An inconvenient truth for us wealthy believers in the West?

A condemnation of rich people?

Or a commentary on what it means to “follow” Jesus?

(Hint: it is not the first two).

There he was, a good Jewish boy, treating his parents kindly, not bearing false witness nor cheating on his wife, surely his “goodness” was the eternal life-insurance policy you mentioned.

No such luck. His pride, his very question, gives him away!

Jesus points out that there is no good work that he can do, no price that he can pay:

Matt 20:24 shreds the doctrine and wrong-thinking of Indulgences.

Christians who think it pointless to do good (in the absence of God), have fallen into sentimentality

(doing good only because they think that is what we are supposed to be doing),

much like the Jewish lad above. Certainly, I agree that they fail the character test,
and are deluded over the validity of a self-referential, indulgent, and illogical argument.

Do unto others….the “Golden rule”…the universality of which seems to belie the uniqueness of Jesus’ words.

Meaning:

Clue#1: (Leviticus 19:18; 19:34) “You shall not take vengence, nor bear any grudge…”.

Clue # 2. Deuteronomy 32:35 (as just one example): “Vengence is Mine”.
Posted by katieO, Tuesday, 21 October 2008 7:09:26 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I don't claim to be an authority on scripture - but surely much scripture is meant in the sense of metaphor: metaphor often beyond which is mystery... Before dismissing - better to be open minded - even if critically so - in the pursuit of truth...

There is a relation between 'camel' and the Hebrew letter 'Gimel'... ' A Judaic interpretation of 'Gimel/camel' can be found here:

http://www.inner.org/hebleter/gimmel.htm

Remember - the 'camel' is a creature perfectly suited to 'crossing the desert'... Could this journey be seen as a testing of sorts? ... As Jesus is said to have been tested in the wilderness?...

Perhaps the metaphor is meant to allude to a time of trouble and testing - of great difficulty - but not an impossible journey as would it be if taken literally
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Tuesday, 21 October 2008 7:12:58 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Another Hebrew letter 'Qof' also refers to the 'eye of the needle'...

As already noted, though, the Hebrew letter 'Gimel' means 'camel'...

So the reader might infer that the mystery refers to the relationship between this Hebrew letter, and the letter 'Gimel'.

Explanation of 'Qof':

http://www.inner.org/HEBLETER/kuf.htm

Explanation of 'Gimel':

http://www.inner.org/hebleter/gimmel.htm

Readers may be skeptical - but recognising that there is a deeper symbolic meaning at work - at least provides a view of what the true intent of the metaphor is - and of the mystery it refers to.
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Tuesday, 21 October 2008 8:02:54 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. Page 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. 5
  7. 6
  8. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy