Continued...
Tristan, thank you for the links. I vaguely remember reading many years ago, a scholar claiming that in the ancient Hebrew the words “camel” and “camel hair” (used to make rope) were very similar; in fact I think only a dot or two over one letter made the difference.
Trying to thread a needle with rope might be more apt, yet personally I like the strength of trying to squeeze the whole camel through the needle. Either way, it is still impossible.
Runner believes I have a “rotten heart” for suggesting that people should be nice to each other, without thought of heavenly reward.
Be careful, Runner. Remember Matthew 5:21, “But anyone who says ‘you fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.”
Happy am I, knowing you are a good Christian. I can just feel your love for me.
Polycarp, mate. According to your version of events, Christ in collusion with his father, committed suicide.
Should we then, bless Judas, for playing the essential part in this holy sacrifice?
Should we bless Ciaphus and the mob for playing their parts in this holy rite, by torturing and murdering a man? It was after all, God’s will, was it not?
Mate, I have read the passages you quote. I reject them, as superstition. I know you’ll forgive my sins, however. Just think of me as another Samaritan.
Kenny, Ozandy, thanks.
Cheers, Grim.

Grim

'Runner believes I have a “rotten heart” for suggesting that people should be nice to each other, without thought of heavenly reward.'

Totally wrong again. I suggest you have a rotten heart (like all) but especially as you mis represent Christ and His teachings so clearly. This is one of the most foolish things a person can do.

Grim,

It may be impossible for you and me, unless we’re talking a largish needle ( Cleopatra’s?) and a smallish camel...

But bear in mind:

“For with God nothing will be impossible.” Luke 1:37

Tristan demonstrates that the meaning of the words, even to the letter, when approached with a heart that yearns to understand the wonders of God’s wisdom, is deep and rich.

Few of us can resist the temptation of imposing our limited human understanding on God’s words. The fault is mine also, my outline does no justice nor gives insight into this mystery.

Matt:19 (yes, I found your mistake unwittingly ,by attributing the passage to Matt:20) is not the best sales pitch for Christianity even though the sacrifice is merely an exchange of meager earthly riches for divine treasures.

A life traveling around Galilee may have held some appeal for someone ready to escape the ennui of first century riches; he could have gone down in history as the first Christian tourist! (But we know he was disheartened and walked away).

Viewed in the context not of the sacrifice required, but the reward promised, these words resonate with Christian readers. To our shame, we cling to our earthly treasures; things we know have a use-by date, despite intimate knowledge of what has been promised.

Jesus’ words pierce the heart of believers (this is not the marketing campaign!), to remind us of our foolish pride, lest we think for a moment that we have earned our place in heaven.

With the benefit of the whole gospel of Matthew, we have learnt that the sacrifice asked of this man was so small as to be trivial, in comparison to the sacrifice that Christ was preparing himself for even as he called his followers.

I encourage you to put hasty assumptions aside, and explore the gospel of Matthew for all the wisdom that it has to offer. Knowing the size of the reward, perhaps that is not as presumptuous as it sounds.

Tristan - just to break it to you - Jewish Rabbis rarely agree on anything, let alone the meaning of texts. Midrashic interpretations of the Bible (Pesher, Letterism, Literalism) are perfectly fine, but hardly authoritative. The web site you refer is clearly using Midrashic hermeneutics.

Peter, are you saying that no one ever changed their preconceived ideas on morality even slightly after reading the Bible? That we only ever use the Bible to confirm our pre-existing prejudices? That would be quite absurd. Does this apply only to the Bible or all books?

Morality is a social construction, it cannot be 'innate'.

You don't interpret Jesus' death and resurrection as metaphor and fail to see the analogies with ancient Jewish ritual sacrifice, Abraham sacrificing Isaac, Jonah's three days in the whale, and the Isaiah texts. You take it literally and think it is like Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter for favourable winds to guide his nation's ships. You obviously don't get it, but I am not inclined to educate the close-minded who think books only exist to confirm our prejudices.

Dear Grim(s fairytales:)

I have exercise restraint here.. because I don't wish to be unkind.

Your take on my take is hmmm... lacking in depth, and of the whole Biblical picture of Salvation. It's very much a surface skim of events in isolation, and looks at them deliberately in terms of 'a suicide pact'.

Un-fortunately, it is rather difficult to communicate the 2000 yrs of history and the record of it's salvation aspects contained in the Old Testament in just a few lines. So, I'll not try.

Suffice to say that the cermonial sacrifice, the redemption from Egypt, the Passover feast... ALL along with the specific prophets (such as Isaiah in particular) who foretold the nature of the Messiah, ALL pointed to the death of Jesus.

It was not a 'suicide' pact, as you put it, it was far far more.
The dimensions of the sacrificial, redeeming death of the Lord Jesus are unsurpassed and unfathomable from a human perspective.

What we are faced with, is the Lord of Glory, who manifested Himself to mankind, and spoke with both word and deed, mighty acts and signs, wonders etc.. all with a view of reconciling a fallen mankind to it's Creator.

Does it make sense? In some ways no, in other ways absolutely.
We all know the idea of justice. "Do the crime, do the time" Punishment for evil is straightforward.
We can all understand the idea of a judge imposing a penalty on a criminal.. such as a huge fine, then out of love, paying the fine himself.

"For God so LOVED the world, that he gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him might not PERISH.......

That takes care of sin...but there's more.

...but have everlasting LIFE."

Now that's the bonus. Your perspective does nothing about the problem of "death". Perhaps to you it's just part of the natural scheme of things? No..the Bible is clear, death is due to SIN! and that is what Jesus dealt with- Once..for all.

Interesting isn't it, that the 2 self-professed defenders of the faith (Runner and Polycrap) are the ones who unleash the most venom.

Walking, talking advertisements for everything that is wrong with their lop-sided world view.

Praise be!