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The Forum > Article Comments > So, where are all these Christians? > Comments

So, where are all these Christians? : Comments

By Peter Grimley, published 21/10/2008

There is a wealth of wisdom in the Gospels, if you just ignore the stuff about gods and angels, heaven, hell and demons.

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Peter along with countless other fools sets himself up as judge of His Creator. It is not enough for him to mock the greatest act of love in history (Christ's death for his rotten heart) but then has the audacity to somehow make out his own self righteousness is more important than what Christ did for him. The Apostle Peter's second epistle sums up this man's doctrine. 'which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction).
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 21 October 2008 11:00:08 PM
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Peter, People being selflessly (?) nice to each other... That will never catch on.
Posted by Kenny, Tuesday, 21 October 2008 11:06:14 PM
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Peter....re the Crucifixion.

You say

"who would do such a thing just to prove they are compassionate"

and I reply.. Mate.. not only are you prone to religious vilification, which is actionable ("crap about gods angels heaven hell and demons")

but you are also of very limited understanding of the Bible and the History of Salvation from Genesis to Revelation.
Do some Googling on say
-"Christology of the old Testament"
-"The suffering Messiah"

Then.. one more thing. If it makes as little sense as you say, then why in the world would it have turned out that way? Hmmmmmm *thinks*. I am absolutely convinced it could NOT have been anything to do with God's will eh? (hopefully you notice the sarcasm there)

You might want to read up on the whole ceremonial worship system of the Temple.. the meaning of day of Atonement, the lamb slain for the people sin... and then have a read of Hebrews 10:11-13

You might like to add a reading of Mark 8:31 9:31 and 10:32-34

They all say the same thing.. Jesus predicting his death.

Top all that off with Luke 24:44-49 and you might begin to understand.
Posted by Polycarp, Wednesday, 22 October 2008 12:54:43 PM
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I too am amazed at the cruelty, arrogance and hypocracy of the vocal Christian.
I am hoping that Australia is safe from the critical mass of fundamentalist loonies they have in the US.
Hey Runner: Who is judging who here? Have you really got that halo that your sniping implies?
It is perfectly valid to point out that the bible is not interpreted equally. To give ones own opinion is *not* a sin!
(Oh but yours is the "Right" version right?)
As a non-superstitious (God too) person I found his spin on things quite refreshing.
Posted by Ozandy, Wednesday, 22 October 2008 2:48:25 PM
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Alfred, “love your neighbour” (in isolation) is not the Jesus message.

Peter was right when he noted that this common theme runs of world religions and philosophical works, the universal “Golden Rule”.

Arguing that this concept is unnatural, and that it would not survive in the natural world, is contrary to the experience of humankind (and observed behaviour in the animal kingdom).

Biblical love has a specific context and description. This is a love for others that is bound inseparably to a love for God. Jesus' words are an elaboration of Deut 19:18:

“You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbour as yourself: I am the Lord”.

Gym-Fish’s and Peter’s assumption that Jesus’ words are derived from “philosophical first principles”, from the “natural selection imperative” is exposed.

The love that Jesus Christ championed in the Gospels was not only superior in quality; it was distinctly different in its end, its object.

“Agape” love, profound, unconditional divine love, starts with surrendering our will to God. Jesus’ words are collaborated by the “OT”, not common social concepts: a love that is willing to give itself utterly for the sake of its object.

Alfred, you are very right to notice the brokenness of the world, but it is impossible to lay the blame for this on the failure of the Christian message or the Christian life in a convincing manner. (Historical relativity at best).

Gym-Fish: “literal hell on earth…millions of innocent people (innocent of ?, if sin is excluded)...tormented by guilt” etc: who are these people? Survivors of massacre, genocide, war? Apart from being insensitive to those who suffer such atrocities, is that truly the Christian experience?

Ozandy: “amazed at the cruelty, arrogance and hypocracy (sic) of the vocal Christian”.

Amazed? You should be incredulous. I’m sure the good works have not been dispensed with altogether by evangelical Christians.

The rule of fairness is not being applied here. Nor is common sense.
Arrogance is also defined as assuming knowledge of biblical exegesis, in the complete absence of any.
Posted by katieO, Wednesday, 22 October 2008 5:43:54 PM
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It is always fascinating to witness how others interpret your own words.
Jon J for instance offers three “more authoritive” quotes from the bible, the first of which is one I quoted myself.
Alfred says: “The spirit of man needs the challenges an opposition, a conflict, an argument, even a disaster provides to feel alive and to evolve. Any new religious philosophy (even Jesuans) will have to incorporate that realisation.”
I thought I was rather emphatic in debunking the whole religious aspect of christian thought.
In coining the term “Jesuan” I sought to separate the MORAL philosophy of Jesus from the religious.
Gym fish, I pretty much agree with most of what you say; I thought I made it clear that I don’t claim to be a Christian, for basically the reasons you put forward.
Why do we need Jesus? Why do we need stories of Camelot, and Sherwood forest? I guess we don’t, but I prefer a life with such stories in it.
KatieO I have no desire to be a Guru, nor do I offer any original wisdom. The article was an effort to point out the existing wisdom of the writers of the new testament.
(Hint: it is not the first two).
Well actually it was the second one, a condemnation of wealthy people.
I find it impossible to understand how the point can be made more clearly. It is IMPOSSBLE to get a camel through the eye of a needle.
“Jesus points out that there is no good work that he can do, no price that he can pay”
Actually, Jesus pointed out there was a price he could pay:
“19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.”
How is this open to interpretation?
Posted by Grim, Wednesday, 22 October 2008 9:49:52 PM
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