'However, most Jewish settlers bought their land in the occupied territories (in cash, from Arabs who love money too much) - I don't like them either, but we still need to get the facts straight.'

Score: Zero from 10.

Rubbish. Why do you perpretrate such utter lies? Most of the land was allocated or auctioned by the Israeli Government.

'Israel does not menace its neighbours ... '

Score: Zero from 10.

Rubbish. Just recently: 1. Occupation of Palestine. 2. Turning Gaza into a ghetto. 3. Invasion of Lebanon

Your rights are also supposed to be given to the Palestinina citizens of Israel... but they aren't. Israel is an aparthied state.
Shouldn't your rights extend to people in the occupied territories?

I've always supported the right for Israel to exist within secure borders. Ive never supported the fascist and racist regimes elected by the Jews of Israel. But you warmongers don't want peace want. Your comment about letting the guns do the talking just shows you want all the mideast and will use your weapons to achieve that end.

One might ask what is your reality? Are you on another planet.

Yuyutsu, having felt heartfelt sympathy for the Jewish families treated so inhumanly by the Nazis, I do feel I should offer an apology.

But having gained honours in general social science studies early in my retirement towards the end of the cold war, must say I stick by the recently discovered expresssion by former US Minister of state, Henry Kissinger -

that allowing little Israel to go militarily nuclear would not only greatly upset the existing middle east power balance, but dangerously add to the present Islamic resentment.

Keith,

No that just isn’t specific enough. Where is all the recent border changing through settlement expansion going on?

>> “I've always supported the right for Israel to exist within secure borders. Ive never supported the fascist and racist regimes elected by the Jews of Israel. But you warmongers don't want peace want”

Oh my god.

Tell me Keith, who is Israel to make peace with? Hamas? You speak of Hamas election manifesto as if it had ANYTHING to do with Hamas and their operations. It is a lie that was perpretated to make Hamas politically palatable to moderate Palestinians. Since their election they have reverted to type and all of their actions are entirely compatible with their Charter. Tell me are you honestly suggesting that Hamas charter is NOT representative of the organization. Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza and attacks on the territory have been limited since then to chasing the incessant rockets which Hamas is shooting at Israel. It is a ghetto for that reason alone

Should they make peace with Hezbollah? The group whose invasion of Israel and kidnap/murder of Israeli soldiers precipitated the 2006 Lebanon war? Just look at Hezbollah’s reaction to the return of the disgusting murderer Samir Kuntar. Listen to the words he uses, including "We swear by God to continue on your same path and not to retreat until we achieve the same stature that God bestowed on you” that being martyrdom in battle against Israel.
http://www.mideastyouth.com/2008/07/15/in-prisoner-swap-samir-kunter-is-no-hero-to-the-arab-fight-for-justice/

The outpouring of joy for a man who deliberately and coldly smashed in the head of a four year old girl with his rifle butt shows the depth of the depravity of Hezbollah and its supporters.

You pretend that Israel can make peace with these people? You suggest that it is Israel which is racist and fascist, when it is only Israel where the two peoples live side by side.

You, who support these actual anti-democratic facist/racist organizations have the gall to suggest I don’t support democracy. You must be joking. Hamas and Hezbollah, democrats? What cave have you been hiding in?

Keith, your answer was partial and evading:

Yes, you support the right for Israel to exist within secure borders.
Well, thank you, but are you just playing with words?
What does "Israel" mean, is it just a name?
Perhaps you can accept a state called "Israel", but only once it lost all content?

For this reason, I specifically asked you not about the state of Israel (a mere instrument, not an end by itself), but about the rights of the Jewish people within it to maintain their Jewish culture.

If you accept Israel AS A JEWISH STATE, then indeed there should be no talk of guns.

I am all in favour that Arabs who wish to live peacefully within the Jewish state, respecting its Jewish nature, should be allowed to live there as equal citizens. I would like to support the rights of those Arabs that already live in Israel and I am terribly sorry and upset about the incidents when this has not been the case. I am, however, suspicious of why others would like to do the same - why would someone who is not Jewish want to migrate and live in a Jewish state? what's the big deal? Unfortunately, the most common answer is, the desire to destroy Israel and its Jewish nature from within - sorry, that's not acceptable.

I made it pretty clear in my previous posts that I am against territorial expansion. Sometimes there is no choice but temporarily go out of one's borders as a necessity for survival in a very hostile neighbourhood, but the moment this is no longer necessary, I would like to see Israel back within the 1967 borders. If/when the security threat is gone, I don't even see why Israel should include Arab towns and villages whose majority are not interested in living in the Jewish state - once security stops being an issue, I would let them choose to live under any state/regime they want.

Thanks, Bushbred:
Wasn't Kissinger a subtle diplomat? "ALLOWING little Israel...": nobody allowed Israel to go nuclear, so all is well and Israel remains!

yuyutsu, you still haven't got Kissinger's message, or rather a Third World War if Iran, possibly the world's strongest Islamic power rears up if attacked by Israel, especially if the rumour is true, that Iran already has live discarded Cold-War nuclear warheads.

Kissinger's message still stands as a warning what letting revengeful small powers go martially atomic might bring on?

Yuyutsu,

Lets be clear here. I have no objection to Jews being Jewish. I do object to Jews refusing others the basic human rights Jews expect.

Israel not only claims to be a Jewish state but also claims to extend basic human rights and equal treatment to all it's citizens. This latter point doesn't occur and in fact minority grouops within Israel are treated unfairly and differently to Jewish people.

I don't have a problem, it is the likes of you who with weasel word arguments try to deflect attention from these basic inequities and try to justify an apartheid Israeli state.

Your position on the Israeli land stealing are just more sniffling weasel words. Don't waste your whineing and grizzling on me. I'm not listening.

Paul L

Do you want settlement names and addresses? Don't be so bloody silly. I'm specific enough for all but fools. Don't waste my time with such stupidity.

'Tell me Keith, who is Israel to make peace with? Hamas?'

Well Paul it's already happened ... did you miss it or are you in denial?

I spoke of Hamas election manifesto as if it was an election manifesto. Your response simply re-enforces your ignorance of the democratic process.

'It is a ghetto for that reason alone'

Gaza is a ghetto because the Israelis are behaving like Nazis.

'Since their election they have reverted to type and all of their actions are entirely compatible with their Charter.'

Since Hamas's democratic election Israel invaded and threw half their democratically elected representative in jail, slaughtered others, denied their legitmacy and attempted to meddle by propping up the PLO fool (Now largely irrelevant) and his unelected Government.

Sheeeesh I wonder how you actually live in your world of denial. Such an attitude ensures events over take you often and ensure you remain perputually a self-fulfulling victim.