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The Forum > Article Comments > Jews on Jews > Comments

Jews on Jews : Comments

By Antony Loewenstein, published 18/7/2008

Many younger American Jews are growing increasingly disillusioned with the Jewish state.

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Yet another article about a situation that neither the writer or any onliner can influence in any way.

Why not focus all that energy on something closer to home....preferably something that one can do something about?

Or are these endless gripes about Israel really the new anti-Jewishness transformed into a modern acceptable format?
Posted by Seneca, Saturday, 19 July 2008 11:26:24 AM
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Socratease, all I can say as a trained historian and political scientist that there is a strategic study called the Balance of Power which Henry Kissinger followed when he warned Richard Nixon not to stay silent about little Israel's pursuit to go militarily nuclear.

It was one of the main reasons the UN was formed during the Korean War, to have strong powers like America as just part of it, not as one large power illegally running the whole show which is not reccomended in Power Balance studies.

Which is the main reason we've got so much hatred and terrorism in the world today, besides our Western lust for oil.
Posted by bushbred, Saturday, 19 July 2008 11:33:15 AM
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If anyone needed reminding about the nature of the enemy Israel is fighting, this weeks' prisoner exchange was particularly instructive.

Witness the heroes’ return of Samir Kuntar, a Lebanese terrorist who rowed his boat to Israel to find and murder the first Jews he came across. He was convicted of murdering a policeman and a man and his four year old daughter. The slain man’s second daughter was smothered by her mother whilst hiding in the attic as Kuntar searched for them. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,24041641-15084,00.html

Witness Hezbollah’s reaction to this exchange. They are proclaiming victory loudly and longly, and have suggested that they will increase their demands for the release of Gilad Shalit to 1000 militants being held in Israeli prisons. Hezbollah generally prefer to kill those Israelis captured, and in this sense Shilat’s case is unusual. However the value placed upon life is clearly discernible amongst this obscene mathematics.

Furthermore, it amply demonstrates that negotiating with Hezbollah or Hamas is a losing proposition for Israel. It merely encourages these groups in the view that their violence is working and that they should persist. There is clearly no interest in negotiating a conclusion to hostilities.

This is the fallacy which has dogged the left for many years. Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah want peace, they want victory. And unfortunately peace can’t be implemented unilaterally. When will the left wake up and see that the groups they support aren’t freedom fighter, they’re terrorists with no interest in the welfare of their people.

Bushbred,

I wonder if you can tell me exactly how Israel’s nuclear weapons have changed the situation in the Middle East? Considering that Israel has three times defeated combined Arab armies using only conventional weapons, how exactly have nuclear weapons shaped the power balance in the region? You can’t I’ll bet.

BTW, the UN wasn’t formed during the Korean war, it was 1945. UN forces actually fought the Korean war. As for you ridiculous claims that the US controls the UN, you should note that China and Russia recently vetoed a resolution for Darfur to help stop the slaughter.
Posted by Paul.L, Saturday, 19 July 2008 2:28:02 PM
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Paul L wrote:

This is the fallacy which has dogged the left for many years. Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah want peace, they want victory. And unfortunately peace can’t be implemented unilaterally. When will the left wake up and see that the groups they support aren’t freedom fighter, they’re terrorists with no interest in the welfare of their people.

Paul: Tragically, you're quite right. The greatest disaster to befall the Palestinians (in my Leftist view) was their being conned into supporting Hamas. If I were a Palestinian robbed of his land and/or forced to be a second-class citizen, I would be resentful too, and in desperation I would be inclined to support a "can-do" organization like Hamas, irrespective of its ideology. Armed struggle, however
sacred to some, is no way to deal with the most powerful military force in the region.
Posted by Youngsteve, Saturday, 19 July 2008 4:05:33 PM
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Just adding to the important note by PLuralismisavirtue:

Zionism has never been univocal

Almost every Israeli, when faced with the question: "are you a zionist [Yes/No]? " would select the "Yes", but do they all mean the same?

When asked to further explain that "Yes", the most common answers would be along the lines:

I am a good person and citizen.
I love my country.
I help my neighbours.
I volunteer.
I pay my taxes.

Only a minority would mention anything to do with Jews, Arabs, territory or settlements.

The term "Zionism" has evolved, but the author comfortably enjoys using it for blaming the whole population of Israel and most Jews for the craziness of a few.

The fact is, that most of Israel's citizens are normal people who just want to get on with their lives, and while the same is true on the Arab side, the moderates there cannot have a voice and it is simply naive to assume that they are capable of achieving a stable democracy where everyone could just get on with their lives, including the ability to choose their religion (or no religion at all). Tragically, such a state would quickly fall prey to radical Islam, where life, if it continues at all, would never be the same.

One does not need to be a zionist, just an ordinary person with common sense that values their life, their freedom and their family, to understand that a one-state solution is suicidal.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 21 July 2008 2:46:23 AM
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Yuyutsu: It's CAMPAIGNING for a one-state solution that's suicidal. More important, it's a colossal waste of time and effort. Any so-called solution that does not take as its starting point the actual mindsets of the real people involved is simply pissing in the wind.
Posted by Youngsteve, Monday, 21 July 2008 9:49:36 AM
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