Ginx

If you are capable of a counter-argument, or indeed ANY argument, please Bring It On! If all you have is the usual bovine loud narcissistic denunciation of the Luvvie Leftist, go sell it elsewhere.

CJ Morgan

"Racist?" Oh lord give me strength! How old are you? Do you think people really listen to that sophomoric pap anymore? Whenever I hear some Luvvie Leftist start banging on about "racism" I reach for my revolver. Wake up!

"The idea that texts written in societies radically different from today's economically, politically and socially could be guides to living or guides to truth based on faith alone is one that I find a little hard to take."

How easy it is for us to feel like we are far more advanced than our ancestors because we benefit from scientific discoveries and technology that has changed the way we live. Yet we still have the same questions about the meaning of life, questions about justice and morality and what happens when we die, and the same basic needs of food, water, shelter and sanitation.

Communities in parts of the Middle East are much the same as they were when Islam arose, particularly in rural regions left behind by modernity. Even so, people are still people regardless of what age they live in and so it does not matter that socities change. Just because we benefit from scientific discoveries and technology, so what? What matters is answers to life's fundamental questions of existence, morality, justice and what happens when we die. The Qur'an provides these answers to the Muslim devotee, just as the Bible does for a Christian, or following some Hindu god does for a Hindu. Modernity does not change our needs, nor does it necessarily provide answers to life's fundamental questions.

CJ Morgan, Feel free to quote a post by me on the subject of Islam that you consider “disingenuous” and we’ll discuss the merits of your opinion. Similarly, feel free to find some “bile” in one of my posts and we’ll discuss it.

We’re all in danger of projecting our own flaws onto others, especially our opponents – so don’t be surprised if there’s a good deal of disingenuous bile in your own posts. You are familiar with my frequent practice of trying to foster agreement – eg the discussion about humanism as common ground a while back. So, you know better than to seriously accuse me of this kind of mischief.

Vilification involves an attack on people, not their ideas. I see Boaz and Paul L. et al as exposing and critiquing ideas and practices, not vilifying people. You know this. True, there is a risk of overflow onto people, but that is never the intent from my observation.

I stand by everything I’ve said about Islam. As for my behaviour towards Muslims, that’s something I needn’t air here in any detail. Suffice to say that I have several Muslim friends and acquaintances. It’s easy to avoid airing my opinion about their religion because our friendship/acquaintance is not formed in the context of polemics and debate: we are colleagues etc.

Unlike yourself, I don’t need to agree with people in order to treat them with respect. This is an important freedom that I, and indeed most people, possess – the freedom to put differences aside and behave well. Try it, it works.

Usually, I would take issue with the word “Islamaphobic”, which you bandy about as though it weighed nothing, but in the case of Islam my reaction really does include some fear. I think it makes sense to fear Islam, and I get no comfort from people like Mustafa Qadri when I ask them to explain why there is nothing to fear. However, fear is not all there is, so “Islamaphobic” is by no means definitive of the position of people like myself.

Pax,

For your amusement

http://www.youtube.com/patcondell

Goodthief - while I accept that your intentions are probably benign (if self-delusional), your apologetics for the the most rabid of Islamophobes in this forum call your personal ethics into question.

You defend those who actively spread hatred, but you feign respect for the victims of such vilification.

You're as bad as they are. And Christian haters are no better than Muslim haters.

All you promulgate is grief, goodthief. Wake up.

Come on you guys.Lighten up!

Muslim integration cannot be facilitated by acrimonious blogs and wild slugging it out.They arent going away and the problems not only will not disappear but will be exacerbated. The moderates will think that they can not hope for justice and acceptance and will be embittered. They will not help out in the fight agsinst bigotry. Those angry young men and not so angry are beginning to betray, ironically enough,sign of the bigotry that they are accusing all Muslims of. Nothing can be gained;opportunity will be lost in a haze of anger and hate.
We want an Australia that can be richly multicultural and the Muslims have a richness that can enrich and empower us.

They do have customs that are repulsive to freedom and democracyloving Australians abhor.And you know what....they are learning to adjust and accept ideas that they wouldnt and couldnt have back in conservative countries that they have fled.

The changes arent going to be dramatic and immediate as you would like,change come with pain and angst.You have no idea just how hard it can be and is going to be. It will not come about in the next two generations perhaps ...and not without lapses on their part,perhaps! We have to be patient and come down very hard and uncompromisingly on the malefactors and bigoted, but in doing so lets not forget that the terrorists are NOT all Muslims who themselves would hate being so betrayed by their benighted idiots.Most Australians are not dedicated to any kind of idealism...booze, sex and footy,not counted!!All this will be very hard for them to empathise with.

lets all hang in there.Make the peace-loving welcome ....they dont have to be punished as well.In the end they will richly reward our forbearance.So.Drop the smiking gun.Think the problem through.Some just love a scrap and would be clamouring for the battlefield.They live for the excitement of it all.Try living for the justice of it all asa well.

Socratease