Ruby

The 9/11 bombers were taking revenge on the US for perceived slights on Islam, including the support of Israel and American forces in Saudi. I’m not suggesting you are condoning the acts, but I’m not convinced you have a handle on them either.

The recent riots and deaths threats which were reactions to the Danish cartoons have nothing to do with Islam being a young religion. They are directly linked to the influence in many Islamic societies of fundamentalist groups which preach hatred of the west. The protests are whipped up, sometimes months after the event by firebrand preachers spewing hatred of the west and determined to face down the liberal democracies.

The only thing I think you got right is the distinction between Islamists(read Islamo facists) and Muslims.

IMO there is a war going on for the hearts and minds of the Muslims worldwide and more specifically in the west. To many people it would seem as though the fascists were just more extreme examples of every day Muslims. I don’t believe that to be the case, however the extent to which Muslims have been captured by the ideas of the Muslim Brotherhood and the Deobandi and the Wahabists is very difficult to know. Only the moderate Muslim community will know these things although I agree we should be paying a lot more attention to what is going on in the mosques.

The only way we can point the finger where it is actually deserved is with the committed support of moderate Muslims.

You say “Moderate Muslims are no more responsible for that bomb going off than you are.” That is as maybe, however the silence from the Muslim communities whilst Islamists are making vile pronouncements does them no favours.

I expect that when the Imam says hateful things about the west, including Australia, that the people get rid of him. I expect that extremists are not invited to mosque for discussions.

I had to laugh at Passy's post.

How many of the proletariat in Karl Marx's day owned shares, either directly or through superannuation funds, as so many of the "working class" do today?

Isn't it a bit "passé", Passy, to be talking the language of class conflict today?

You'll be talking about "capitalists and their running dogs" next.

You probably need to update your world view to 2008 rather than that of 1908.

You don't seem to have noticed that Communism has failed completely everywhere it has been tried: and the reason for that, Passy, is human nature, as I've mentioned before.

Dear Froggie

If class is irrelevant what philosophy have you adopted to explain the world and the way it works?

If class analysis is irrelevant to understanding the rise of Islamism, what is the alternative analysis. (No doubt it is that it is islamofascism or some such nonsense, or that the Muslim religion is inherently evil. If we are to talk in religious terms, then the same analysis applies to Christianity, although its brutal colonial and imperialist history shows it is far more evil than Islamism. I don't see it in religious terms. I agree with Marx when he said the history of capitalism is written in blood.)

You might like to address my claim that George W Bush is the biggest terrorist today and the greatest threat to world peace.

If you think Stalinism was socialism or communism then you understand none of those concepts.

If class is irrelevant (you forgot by the way to call me a dinosaur) why did Australians vote Howard out? If class is irrelevant why did the Opposition in Zimbabwe call for a general strike against Mugabe? If class is irrelevant how do you explain the magnificent revolutions in Eastern Europe that overthrew the Stalinist dictatorships? If class is irrelevant how do you explain the state capitalism of China? (A state capitalism that has existed since Mao's nationalist "revolution".)

If class is irrelevant why do the majority of us have to sell our ability to work to someone else to survive?

In terms of this discussion you might also like to answer the question why Wilders uses anti-Muslim rhetoric to attempt to hold his place in Dutch politics, a position that can best be described as the extreme right? Perhaps he is using crude racism in an attempt to get some working class support? (A sort of Pauline Hanson of Holland, perhaps.)

I look forward to your erudite answer (between laughs of course.)

I know, don't feed the trolls. But occasionally they raise issues I think actually worthy of debate. A stopped clock is right twice a day.

Savage Pencil: Thanks for the extra info on that Malaysian survey. Is it fair to say then that Malaysian ‘hatred’ of Australia has less to do with Islam per se and more to do with propaganda perpetrated by the former Malaysian PM?

Viking13. My apologies for the error, yes it is the Hadiths which are been reviewed. The Hadiths are guidelines for interpreting the Qu’ran, so the essence remains the same: a much needed re-evaluation of Islam.

When I referred to Muslims replacing Jews as scapegoat I did mean in the Western world. And nowhere did I imply that Jews deserved the hatred that was heaped onto them.

I never called Wilders a fascist. By ‘far right’, I mean very conservative. Which he is, in all his policies, not just his attitude to Muslims and immigration.

Viking, the conflict in Darfur is essentially a tribal not religious one, New York was revenge for US support of Israel, Madrid and London were revenge for Iraq. The 2006 war between Hezebollah and Israel saw a dramatic increase in the popularity of that militant group amongst Christian Lebanese- not their traditional fan base. This was a direct result of the actions of Israel in that war. Yes, conflict exists! It is not only the Muslims who engage in it. Have you heard of the (Christian) Lord’s Resistance Army in Uganda? They kidnap children, use them as soldiers and force them to cut off the breasts and lips of women. The human race is pretty screwed up. But to oversimplify it and blame only the religion is self-defeating, as you are not really getting to the bottom of the issues. Far from being a religious apologist, I am actually an atheist, my concern is that when we place 1.5 billion people into one category (ie all Muslims are the enemy), then we are ensnaring many who are innocent of any wrong doing.

John Greenfield: Your comments on my article indicate that you need to read it again before you start accusing me of defending ‘Islamofascism’ (not a real word)

Islam Fitna's up itself,as it parodies it's own outrageous beliefs by constantly threatening and actuating violence.

Not until all the vile verses of the Koran are removed,will there be peace.

Goodthief: As a filmmaker I would say character development is important in any type of film. When I said religion is used as a tool, it was specifically a reference to the terrorist attacks depicted in the film. In the cases of violence such as the murder of Theo Van Gogh, then I thought I made that clear that it was religious fanaticism that was the problem. But then, religious fanaticism is not purely a Muslim characteristic. Basically, what I am trying to say is that the situation is much more complicated than simply, Islam is violent. Goodtheif I do think Islam is problematic, but I do not think that all the strife that Muslims find themselves in today is purely a result of their religion (politics, war, socio-economic status, displacement etc are all factors).

My reference to Fitna being ‘a call to arms for those who hate Muslims’ was purely a figurative one. As in Geert is intending to stir hatred and anger, not a literal call to arms. I don’t think that arousing fear was a side effect of Fitna, I think it was the intention.

Paul L: I understand exactly where you are coming from but is the support of Israel and forces in Saudi not a political issue? Would there be the level of terrorist activity in the Middle East today if not for these issues? The PLO was born after the creation of Israel as were all other Palestinian terrorist groups. Hezebollah did not exist until after Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982. If the problem was merely Islam then Islam would be attacking the West without the slightest provocation, that is my point. I agree that much of the reaction of the cartoons was orchestrated by anti-Western-clerics. Like I said in my article it’s a case of religious devotion whipped into a frenzy by political goals. And I reiterate that these are two separate issues which over lap and sometimes get entangled. As you said Paul, it is a fine hair, but nonetheless, it is a hair that exists. I have reached my word limit…