Paul L, I agree that Islam is screaming out for a reformation. Turkey has already announced it is reviewing the Qu’ran for this purpose. And though we rarely hear of it, there are small steps being made in the progress of women in Islamic countries. However, these are being undermined by extremism in other corners.

How do we in the West counteract hateful extremist messages? Perhaps by not denouncing all Muslims as evil. perhaps by not further alienating all Muslims because of the actions of a few. Perhaps by supporting those Muslims that are leading the movement for change. Whilst most terrorist activity does appear to be perpetrated by Muslims today, it is grossly unfair to label most Muslims as terrorists for they are not. To label them as such is to give credence to the arguments of the fundamentalists- that the West hates Islam. Can you see how this sword is two edged?

I mention Christian fundamentalism only to point out that Islam is not alone in seemingly advocating violence. The case of Mohammed B does directly co-relate to the case of Paul Hill- individuals driven to murder purely by religious fanaticism. But neither relate to bin Laden whose ambitions are political. In other words even though bin Laden and Mohammed B are both Muslim, their motivations are poles apart. Religion is only part of the problem. Yes, the London bombers identified with the dead Muslims, but their actions were not motivated by a simple hatred of the West as Wilders claims. It was simple, bloody revenge. No less horrific, but to continue to deny any political motivation behind such attacks is to live with our head in the sand. The more we alienate the Muslims in our midst, the more we flan the flames of extremism as Fitna is undoubtedly doing

Boaz your latest patronising statement:

“Fractelle.. now.. honestly you need a good talking to. Pity 350 words isn't enough.”

No Boaz, I don’t.

I honestly expressed my opinion on Online Opinion, your problem is that you disagree, but can’t deal with the fact that others, especially women don’t find you as inspirational as you do. ;-(

As for your interpretation of the scriptures, AKA ‘cherry picking' – many Christians here on OLO and demonstrably elsewhere, have a completely different interpretation to your narrow fundamentalist perspective. Sad but true, old man.

Whether the gospels are fact or not, it is very risky to think that YOUR understanding is completely free from error. In fact, your religiosity is the most arrogant and least spiritual of any of the religious people who post here. I make exceptions for both Runner and Gibo, because they clearly suffer from mental impairment, whereas you have no excuse.

BTW have you even watched Fitna? Last time I checked you could see snippets of it on Youtube? You should have no trouble identifying with the Islam fundys in it being a fundamentalist of one of the Middle Eastern religions yourself. You guys have just so much in common - you really should get together for a yarn.

Ruby Soho (Ruby Hamad) says: "The more we alienate the Muslims in our midst, the more we flan (sic) the flames of extremism as Fitna is undoubtedly doing".

Ruby, when are Muslims going to do something about acknowledging the vile stuff that is put into print every single day in Muslim-majority countries about the West, about Christians, about Jews and other infidels?

Due to space reasons I can’t provide anything like a comprehensive list of all of this vile material but as a background primer might I suggest that you (Ruby) read the document Islamic Anti-Semitism in Historical Perspective which is available at http://www.adl.org/anti_semitism/arab/Arab_Anti-Semitism.pdf

I also have a link for The Washington Post article that I mentioned in my previous post on this topic - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006051901769.html

As the author, Nina Shea, notes in her article: "A review of a sample of official Saudi textbooks for Islamic studies used during the current academic year reveals that, despite the Saudi government's statements to the contrary, an ideology of hatred toward Christians and Jews and Muslims who do not follow Wahhabi doctrine remains in this area of the public school system".

And let's not forget that in Saudi Arabia, Islamic studies are estimated to make up a quarter to a third of students' weekly classroom hours in primary and lower secondary schooling.

At the end of her article Shea notes that the views expressed in Saudi school textbooks, will "only harden and deepen hatred, intolerance and violence toward other faiths and cultures".

Also what are non-Muslims supposed to make of a recent survey of Malaysian Muslim opinion, which showed that while there was a substantial residual moderation amongst the respondents, there was also a degree of genuine intolerance among even the majority and authentic extremism among a substantial minority. According to this survey, only 4% of Malay Muslims liked Australia while a combined 57% either hated or disliked Australia.

Ruby, when you can show us that Fitna is on an approved list of viewing for school students in the West as a factual documentary, we might then actually listen to your argument.

Passy,

You and your far left buddies are intellectually vacuous if you cannot recognize that Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ceasecu, the Shining Path and the many others are the obvious and inescapable progeny of Marx’s absurd philosophy. By its undemocratic nature, Communism inevitably leads to the powerful and ambitious, seizing control whilst hiding behind the cloak of the “public good”.

The George Bush is a mass murderer nonsense deserves a response only because far-left propaganda needs to be defeated wherever it raises its ugly head. To start with the oil for food program which accompanied the blockading of Iraq was sanctioned by the UN. Secondly, as Boazy said, The money and food to feed the people of Iraq was there, Saddam just refused to distribute it. He instead chose to beef up his praetorian guard and replenish and re-man his armies whilst his people starved. But don’t let the facts get in the way of a good story.

The Iraq war may have led to 655,000 Iraqi deaths, I won’t quibble about statistics today. But the vast majority of deaths in Iraq have been caused by sectarian hatred and ethnic cleansing carried out by the Iraqis themselves. Ie Sunnis killing Shia, Shia killing Sunnis, Sunnis killing Kurds etc. To then pretend that Bush is the behind the deaths of those people is preposterous, its propaganda, which is all the far left knows how to do. Bush didn’t tell AlQaeda in Iraq to attack Shia mosques, and he didn’t ask the sadrists to respond with murder squads targeting Sunni civilians.

At worst Bush is responsible for underestimating the number of soldiers required to win the peace in Iraq.

Class analysis is so pathetic, so old and so irrelevant, that I am amazed you have the audacity to even mention it. I’d be embarrassed about parroting a superseded philosophy which had failed spectacularly everywhere it had ever been put into use.

Boaz: I have no reason to give you an apology nor a desire to get into a slanging match, suffice to say I would not have made those comments about the Bible had I not being able to back them up.

Ginx: Thanks for pointing out that this is indeed a matter of cause and effect, and that freedom of speech is not just the freedom to be hateful.

Hasbeen: Attacking the writer as opposed to the argument makes you look silly, not me.

Mr Right: You contradict yourself by saying you know I don’t justify murder but then telling me my statements about Western interference in the Middle East justify terrorism. Nowhere do I blame the west for what you call the “backwardness of Islam”. How many times can I say that I believe terrorism has more to do with politics than it does with religion?

Runner: Women in Iraq are no more free to express their views now than they were under Saddam’s regime. In fact, in Basra, they are less so. I support women’s rights with all my heart, however I don’t think spreading hatred is the best way to help them.

Savage Pencil: Is that survey a recent one? Would it have yielded the same results had it been taken 10 years ago? Could Malaysian distrust have anything to do with Australia’s eagerness to go to war with Iraq?
I am not saying that Islam is not without its problems. I do wish to see it progress. I am just of the opinion that films like Fitna do nothing to hasten the social progress of Muslims but do much to prevent it.

Wobbles: nice point about the curious abundance of Danish flags. Methinks there is someone making a lot of money…Also, thanks for bringing how Muslims seem to have have replaced Jews as scapegoat. It’s actually the focus of an article I am currently writing.

Thanks to everyone who has commented on the article, whether you agreed with my point of view or not. And thanks for keeping it quite civil (mostly)

Sorry Ruby,

You say terrorism is political but then you say “Could Malaysian distrust have anything to do with Australia’s eagerness to go to war with Iraq” What has Malaysian politics got to do with Iraqi politics? The only link is Pan-Islamism.

You say “Thanks for pointing out that this is indeed a matter of cause and effect,” and you appear to be saying that Islamic intolerance is the effect” meaning of course that western bigotry is the cause, yet you say to Mr Right “Nowhere do I blame the west for what you call the “backwardness of Islam””. Which is it?

You say “… it is grossly unfair to label most Muslims as terrorists for they are not. To label them as such is to give credence to the arguments of the fundamentalists- that the West hates Islam”

Yes I agree with you. Can you see that we need to know for sure that Islam, as it is practiced today, doesn’t hate the West? How much evidence do we see that this is not the case?

>>“I mention Christian fundamentalism only to point out that Islam is not alone in seemingly advocating violence”

I’m all for locking up Christian fundies advocating suicide bombing and attacking innocents. But it’s not helping your cause to pretend that we have the same problem.

>> “Yes, the London bombers identified with the dead Muslims, but their actions were … simple, bloody revenge.”

What was Osama bin Laden taking revenge for on 9/11. What were the bali bombers taking revenge for?

>> “… to continue to deny any political motivation behind such attacks is to live with our head in the sand.”

But Islam can and is seen as a way of life in which politics is indivisible. Those supporting Sharia for example see Islam in this way.

I agree that we need to support moderate muslims and we need to be able to better recognise them. They would do their own cause a lot of good if they were prepared to stand up and criticise the Islamists among them. Can they do this?