Muhammed lovers keep answering the question. As have the Sufi apologists for centuries, realising that Islam is offensive to non-muslims. Sufis (and other apologists) have done they best to turn “kill” into “kiss’, and “beat” into “tap lightly” . And, thinking that they have answered it, ignore other concerns.

I think you Muhammed lovers are in for a bit of a shock.
Most non-muslims are starting to find out that Muhammed’s message is insane, disgusting and disturbing. I personally am sick to death of the scxreaming and suffering perpetuated in the name of the ridiculous fruitcake God you people bow to everyday.

FH demonstrates that he is confused. How can a caravan raiding, jew murdering bigot be divine? What divinity is there in having his companions murder a woman with kids at her side? FH, Irfan, you are sick to believe in Muhammed’s message. What do we have to do to help you?!! Would you like to book into the Jesus, Nepolean or Muhammed wing? What do you want done? Why do you think rational people are going to accept the message of an insane bigot?

Steven,

I answered your question.
You seem to be all over the place on faith, what do you believe in?

F_H you have NOT answered the question. For reasons which I fully understand you're not able to.

What do I believe?

I'm answering that question in the context of our discussion.

ON the question of whether there exists an entity that could be called the creator of the universe I'm agnostic. I think it unlikely; but if you show me some evidence I'll change my mind.

In the unlikely event that a creator does exist, does he / she / it / they / whatever:

--Take an interest in our species on our planet? Probably not

--Take an interest in individuals within out species? Even less likely

--Wish us to "worship" him / her etc for our own good? Seems bizarre.

--Resemble in any shape manner or form the "God" described in the bible or the grotesque "allah" described in the koran? You've got to be kidding.

You notice the form of my responses F_H. I cannot prove that the koran is not the word of the creator of the universe. For all I know the creator of the universe has a good reason for commanding one group of species homo sapiens to murder, crucify and mutilate other members of the same species under certain ill-defined circumstances.

But I think it even less likely than my winning the lottery 10 weeks in a row – were I to buy a ticket. I think my judgement that the koran is a compendium of 7th century bull excrement is probably closer to the truth.

But unlike religios I understand that certainty is in these matters is impossible. In the end I have to go with the weight of the evidence.

In a wider sense my beliefs can best be summed up by Steven Weinberg's oft quoted maxim:

"The effort to understand the universe is one of the very few things which lifts human life a little above the level of farce and gives it some of the grace of tragedy."

And on another level I believe that life is beautiful.

As you can see F_H, I have no difficulty articulating my beliefs.

Thanks Steven,

You seem open minded on all fronts but put the narrow vision on Muslims. Anyone who read the whole Quran will not come to your conclusion.

good talking to you.

I see that, despite Steven's voluble 'secular' critique of Islam, he hasn't been able to support his claim that I "excuse Muslims" for religiously derived excesses.

The reason I mention it is that I don't think I've ever done any such thing.

If anything, I think that Islam is even more reprehensible and ridiculous than its cousins in Abrahamic mythology, Judaism and Christianity. What I object to is the implicit but obsessive vilification of those millions of people who follow the Islamic variant of that mass delusion.

From where I stand, they're all pretty anachronistic and ultimately sources of conflict in the world. But we need to live and let live, so to speak :)

CJ Morgan,(& Steven)

I spent sometime reading the thread above and I don't believe Steven is sharing his true beliefs. He believes so much in the first 5 books of the bible as the absolute truth (re-read his comments on Abraham legitimate HEIR). Its the only time where he uses UPPER CASE intensly.

The atheism and bhudism portraits are smoke screens in my view or maybe he is just being trendy.
I can't see someone reading the Quran and getting stuck on the 19 sentences of 6,000 and overlooking the horrors in other references depicting God the father as vendictive, racist and land developer and allocator ato times.

Steven, you don't need to be honest here but at some point in time you need to be honest with yourself.

Have a good weekend,