Fellow_Human

Oops.

I meant in the bible Isaac, not Ishmael, is Abraham's HEIR. In a sense Ishmael and Isaac swap roles in the koran.

Your last post gives the game away. You ask "which STORY would you LIKE your children to believe."

You concede that the "stories" are DIFFERENT. A different life story means a different person. So the Muslim claim to "believe in all prophets" is bogus. You believe in DIFFERENT prophets with different life stories that have the same names as the biblical prophets.

It is interesting that you ask which STORY I would LIKE my children to believe.

Are you saying that you do not believe in the literal truth of the koranic stories, that we are free to choose which stories to believe?

I am aware of the "science," so-called, of koranic interpretation. It is not a science at all. It is the art of explaining away – not explaining, but explaining away – the awkward bits.

However you miss my point. Anyone who in the 21st Century thinks the creator of the universe would say anything like 5:33 or 9:5 is either:

--Pitiably ignorant of what we now understand about the nature of the universe;

OR

--Immune to reason.

The creator of the universe depicted in the koran has the character of a seventh century Arabian warlord. Considering who was largely responsible for compiling the koran that is not surprising.

The top 5 religions are Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Chinese Universism and Buddhism. Of these Islam stands out as easily the one with the most violent teachings. Hinduism is probably second because its caste system contains inbuilt violence. But it lags far behind Islam.

The dichotomy is not between Islam and Christianity or "The West." It is between Islam and all the other major religions in the world.

Can you imagine Jesus or the Buddha ever telling their followers to crucify, mutilate or slaughter under ANY circumstances

Steven,

Not sure you keep jumping between the Bible (which you keep quoting from then for some reason you appear to have never read it).

Two comments:

a. The definition of a prophet in the Islamic faith is a good, honest human being chosen to preach or teach a message. And Hence ‘reason’ dictates that we believe the in the Islamic version and not the other versions of their biography. In the non-Islamic version, Lot got drunk and committed adultery with his daughters. It also claims that God killed the first born ‘randomly’ in every house hold in Egypt until the Jewish people got their freedom.

b. The teachings of Christianity and Bhuddism is no different to Mystic Islam known as Sufism which is practice by more than 20% of the total muslims around the world. To know more about mystic Islam here is a good site:
http://www.fethullahgulen.org/

Fellow_Human,

The only reason I keep quoting from the bible is because we’re arguing about whether Islam truly believes in all the prophets in the bible. What’s in the bible is intrinsic to the discussion.

The koran describes prophets that have the same names as those used in the bible but tells different stories about them. The fact that you believe these stories are more logical is IRRELEVANT.

The stories are DIFFERENT.

Therefore the frequently repeated Muslim claim to believe in the prophets of the bible is bogus. You believe in DIFFERENT prophets with the same names.

Most Muslims are not Sufi. Most faithful Sunnis and Shia despise Sufism.

I am curious. Do you take the koran literally?

A “yes” or “no” will suffice. But add any qualifications you feel are necessary.

I am really curious to know how a seemingly intelligent person such as yourself could believe that the creator of the universe would say something like 5:33 or 9:5.

I have tried to have this discussion with Muslims before and I realise I am probably wasting my time. The usual responses are:

--No I don’t take the koran literally (A distinct minority among Muslims generally but actually a majority among my Muslim colleagues)

--Flim flam about the “science” of interpreting the koran

--Abuse (The majority response among Muslims generally but a minority among my colleagues.)

Steven,

“Therefore the frequently repeated Muslim claim to believe in the prophets of the bible is bogus. You believe in DIFFERENT prophets with the same names”.

FH: Being different is not a crime, I believe the Muslim version (cos I am a Muslim) and you don’t. Really simple. The Islamic faith is based on belief in previous books and prophets. Islam does not claim to be a new religion or a parallel universe like you are portraying it. The Quran confirms previous prophets’ stories with few corrections to where the biography got distorted.

“Most Muslims are not Sufi. Most faithful Sunnis and Shia despise Sufism”

FH: Another confirmation you don't want to understand Islam: Muslims don’t despise each other or even other creatures, animals or plants. It’s a key teaching. Sufism is a popular growing version although extreme sufism might be viewed as too passive.

“I am curious. Do you take the Quran literally?”
FH: I don’t and matters of faith, any faith can’t be taken literally. Hitler took the Bible literally.

“I am really curious to know how a seemingly intelligent person such as you could believe that the creator of the universe would say something like 5:33 or 9:5”

FH:
Not sure what you mean by 5:33 it’s the story of Adam’s children and it’s the same as the Biblical one.
You seem to be the one taking Quran literally. Muslims (or most of them) understand all part 9 as a revelation during the time of war. That whole section got little to do with faith but mainly defining the rules of war, punishment for treason during the times of war, alms evasion (the poor due), etc..
Any legal system today has similar clauses and penalties for similar crimes including tax-evasion (not paying the alms).

Peace,

Fellow_human wrote:

"...Muslims don’t despise each other or even other creatures, animals or plants. It’s a key teaching..."

LOL FH :-)

That ranks right up there with Ahmadinejad's "In Iran we don't have homosexuals like in your country" statement.

FH wrote:

"Being different is not a crime,..."

I did not say being different was a CRIME. I merely said it was DIFFERENT and therefore the Muslim claim to believe in the prophets of the bible was BOGUS. You believe in DIFFERENT prophets with the same names.

Even being bogus is not a crime unless you are trying to defraud someone.

Anyway you answered my most important question. You don’t take the koran literally.

That leads to the next question.

Do you believe the creator of the universe transmitted the koran verbatim to Muhammad via an angel?

Of course, Steven's supposedly secular crusade against Islam would be somewhat more credible, if he also badgered the far more prolific OLO Christian fundies about their delusions, with the same vigour that he pursues our few Muslim correspondents.