Danielle,

Thanks for your kind comments…

“Do you think it possible that Islamic anthropologists and archaeologists could identify accreditions of old tribal mores and practices, in no way attached to Islamic beliefs, and these be expunged from Islamic practices”

There are lots of books, authors on pre-Islamic tribal habits in pagan Arabia and how some of it got ‘stuck’ to Islamic cultural practices. The Burqa is an example as it was used by rich women and women of status in pre Islamic Arabia and isn’t directly related to Islam. Most Muslims would probably be aware of it but when it comes to western understanding its challenging for a number of reasons.

Key reasons being that West European and North American cultures are mainly polarised between either inherently Christian belief or non-religious belief altogether. Both poles are inherently non supportive of Islamic faith or interested in its modernisation because Christian theology at its core sees Islam as an ‘alternative and not a parallel’ (search Pope Benedict comments). The anti-religious pole is even stronger as they suffered for centuries to separate the church and state and replace it with democracy. Even democracy scarred secularism by bringing a religious nut to power (Hitler) so last thing they would worry about is ‘another religion’ going through modernisation and honestly I can understand this view.

Bottom line Islam or its modernisation has no advocates or supporters in Western societies apart from its own followers.

Peace,

Fellow_Human writes:

"…Christian theology at its core sees Islam as an ‘alternative and not a parallel’…"

But the reverse is also true.

The following are core tenets of Islam:

--Muhammad received the koran verbatim from an angel.

--The koran alone is the uncorrupted word of the creator of the universe.

--The bible was corrupted by man. It is not a true reflection of the word of the creator of the universe.

If I've got it wrong Fellow_Human, if these are not core tenets, let me know.

The consequence of those three core tenets is that denigration of Christianity and Judaism is actually a CENTRAL aspect of Islam.

I am also at a lost to understand how kafirs can "support" the modernisation, whatever that may mean, of Islam. Perhaps you can enlighten me. How can a kafir help?

You wrote:

"The anti-religious pole…. suffered for centuries to separate the church and state and replace it with democracy."

NEWS FLASH

Most Christians in Western countries want secular democracy and a separation of religion and state.

It's not just the "anti-religious."

And here's what we don't want:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7239953.stm

SNIP

Early morning in Tehran, and two mobile cranes are being manoeuvred into place. They are to act as temporary gallows for a public execution.

Already the crowd are out in force, some of them in a remarkably cheery mood. A few are getting ready to photograph the scene on their mobile phones. There are even one or two young children around.

SNIP

One man was stoned to death in Iran last year, after being convicted of adultery.

Human rights groups say two sisters, Zohreh and Azar Kabiri, now face the same penalty, after they were also convicted of adultery. Both are mothers, each with one child.

Steven,

Not sure if you are mis-informed or just selective. You said

“The following are core tenets of Islam:
--Muhammad received the koran verbatim from an angel.
--The koran alone is the uncorrupted word of the creator of the universe.
--The bible was corrupted by man. It is not a true reflection of the word of the creator of the universe.
If I've got it wrong Fellow_Human, if these are not core tenets, let me know”

Not quiet, the above is true in the context of:

- Muslims also have to believe in all prophets of the Bible and the Torah (the first 5 books of the Bible).
- Muslims should treat followers of Christians, Jews, etc.. as people of the Book. They should respect and honour them.
- Even ‘unbelievers’ have the right of safety and to be treated with respect.

For reference you can refer to any known books of Islam or simply Pickthall meaning translation of all part 2 of the Quran.

You also said

“ The consequence of those three core tenets is that denigration of Christianity and Judaism is actually a CENTRAL aspect of Islam”

That’s your own conclusion.

Perhaps you can explain why Muslims kept and preserved Christian and Islamic places of worship in most Muslims countries (with the exception of the wahabbis in Saudi). If you compare apples to apples, Jewish people seeked refuge in Muslims countries when they were most persecuted by alledged followers of Christianity pre- & post the Spanish inquisition and ending with Hitler last century.
Don’t forget that Israel was formed to seek refuge and hide away from discrimination in Christian Europe. I am sure you are familiar with Theodore Hertzel writings.

Your SNIPS are political and have nothing to do with religion.
If we are conversing in the context of human rights, Tehran's action is pathetic. More pathetic is Israel's collective punishment and seige of Gazza to catch few terrorists. I hope you see both as bad.

Peace,

Fellow_Human

Muslims often run that line about believing in "all prophets of the Bible and the Torah."

But that's the MUSLIM VERSION of the prophets. For example Muslims believe Jesus was not crucified and Ishmael was Abraham's son. Then we have the bizarre Sura 18 which may be called "The Education of Moses."

I could go on but here is the reality. Muslims do not "believe" in "all prophets of the Bible and the Torah." Muslims believe in DIFFERENT PROPHETS with the SAME NAMES.

For the sake of argument ONLY I'll assume:

--There exists a creator of the universe.

--The creator takes an interest in the events on the planet we call Earth

--This creator thinks it will benefit members of our species if we worship him.

Let us look at this "final uncorrupted word of the creator of the universe." We'll leave aside the fact that the creator plagiarised from the works of Galen, a second century anatomist. We'll forget that the creator of the universe gets some basic facts of human reproduction wrong (See Sura 86, 5-7).

Instead let's focus on 5:33

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,"

(Shakir)

Remember, this is the creator of the universe speaking!

The creator of the universe tells those who worship "him" that, under certain circumstances, they are COMMANDED to CRUCIFY or MUTILATE people!

Words like "farfetched," "incredible" and "fantastic" don't begin to do this proposition justice.

The idea that the bible is the word of the creator is equally fantastic. But Jesus does not advise his followers when to crucify and mutilate – or when to slaughter the "idolaters" as in 9:5. Neither for that matter does the Buddha.

We all want the same thing. What a wonderful thought.

I have my doubts, a brief wander through human history seems to count strongly against it. I’m pretty sure the Nazis didn’t want the same thing as the Jews.

Nevertheless I’ll accept Irfan’s premise and test it on him in good faith. I hope he is able to live up to his strong convictions.

OK considering Muslims want the same as ordinary Australians perhaps you can be the first, as a leader of your community to publicly give assent to the following values held in common by our polity.

-That religion is a matter of personal conscience and can have no aspirations for unity of Church and State.

-That people of all religions have the right to apostasy.

-Representatives of all religions have the right to proselytize members of other faiths.

-And given that Western democracy arose from a fight for freedom of religion and personal conscience. You believe that democracy cannot exist in the absence of freedom of religion.

-That democracy is defined broadly in terms of human rights and you do not support the State imposed application of the criminal law component of sharia in Muslim countries.

-You condemn violence and Palestinians, Chechens, and Kashmiris who give up their lives to kill enemy civilians.

-You condemn terrorist groups such as Abu Sayyaf, Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, Groupe Islamique Armée, Hamas, Harakat ul-Mujahidin, Hizbullah, Islamic Jihad, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Lashkar-e-Tayyiba, and al-Qaida

-You believe Muslim women have equal rights with men for example in inheritance shares and court testimony.

-You condemn jihad as a form of warfare and that Muslims have much to learn from the West.

-Non-muslims should enjoy completely equal civil rights with Muslims in Muslim countries.

-Shi’ites and Sufis are legitimate Muslims and should not be condemned as unbelievers.

-You admit there should be free scholarly enquiry into the origins of Islam and the textual reliability of the Quran.

-You believe institutions supporting terrorism deserve to be shut down and do not see this as a symptom of bias.

Look forward to your public responses Irfan

Steven,

The way Muslims interpret the Quran is through the science of ‘meaning-interpretation and reason-for-revelation. Please get an ‘Islam for dummies’ or ‘Quran for idiots’ from any bookstore if you are serious about understanding Islam or how Muslims practise their faith. Until then you will have little respect or creidibility when you discuss matters of faith with a Muslim.

The context of 5:33 and all part 9 is within the context of ‘fight those who fight you (ie uniformed enemy combatants) and shall not transgress’ You can go to youtube and search for Deedat debates with a number of missionaries regarding the same topic. You can also watch Dr Gary Miller understanding the Islamic faith on the same website.

Other comments:

1. “Muslims version of prohets"

I read the prophet stories in the 3 religions of Abraham. Honestly I prefer the Islamic portrait of God’s prophets being good, honest and ethical people. Please compare stories of David, Solomon and Moses and tell me which story would you like your children to believe.

2. “Jesus was not crucified”

Not sure why this is an issue for you according to your faith the man never really existed.
Anyway, Jesus is honoured as a prophet of God in the Islamic faith. Crucifix and its symbolism of divinity is not a matter of faith for us Muslims. All we know he is another Holy prophet and we follow his teachings but we don’t believe he is divine or God. In that belief we are no different than Unitarian Christians.

3. “Muslim’s believe Ishmael was Abraham’s son”

Well I am out of words. Its actually the bible that states that Ishmael was Abraham’s first born and Abraham took Ishmael’s mother as a wife (according to Sarah’s wish). It goes as far as claiming that it was God who gave Ishmael his name (ie that God 'heard' his mother prayers). The Quran merely confirms the biblical sory.
Not sure what religion you follow but start by reading the bible.

Peace,