Whitty, are there female flashers? And if there were, why would you be excited and not intimidated or afraid? Would a young boy be afraid? It is after all an aggressive act of forced confrontation with sex.

The point is, I would be surprised if there was any woman who has not found herself at least once in a situation which was frightening. So, regardless of what feminists say, women themselves have had personal experiences that were not made up, were not just hysterical attention seeking behaviour.

Stating this, cannot be reduced to a statement that women think ALL men are evil potential rapists. But we have learned that many men can be opportunistic when faced with a choice. Otherwise, why can't a woman walk scantily clad alone at 11.00pm down the street for instance?

As to the picture, I can tell you who is uncomfortable with seeing naked men. It is other men. Not women. Sure some women might be, but then there are men who disagree with women being portrayed naked too.

And as to the raising of boys. Yes, mothers raise their sons, but so do their fathers. They see how their father treats their mother, speaks to her and speaks of other women and men. He may grow up to think that he needs to be 'a man' rather than a human being who happens to be a male. Anything to differentiate and distance himself from female.

Our society is not shaped by women. It is shaped by men. I have no idea how old you are, but I'm here to tell you that it was not very long ago (the 60's and 70's) that a woman could not make financial decisions or living choices without the permission of her husband or father. Unlike men. In 1981, I, as a 20 year old independently earning adult, needed my father's permission to move out of the nurses quarters for instance. The blokes did not.

Women are only very recently independent consumers.

Audrey that was beautifully written and very moving, and brave as hell.

HRS, be a man and embrace your inner slime. Be the boy who relished the notion that he was made of slugs and snails and puppy dog tails...lighten up.

JamesH, I agree that the 'mini love affair' bit was wrong. Raising a daughter is an enduring love affair.

Yvonne,

There are plenty of female flashers. Have you ever heard of Mardi Gras in New Orleans? I definitely wouldn’t see it as an aggressive act. I don’t condone flashing children though.

I find it quite offensive that you say ‘Many’ men are opportunistic when faced with an opportunity to rape. You obviously have a very low opinion of men.

I cant agree that men are uncomfortable seeing other men naked. Well that’s not my experience in the rugby change rooms.

‘…needs to be 'a man' rather than a human being who happens to be a male. Anything to differentiate and distance himself from female.’
Why are women closer to human than men? Why have men no right to a distinct identity while women do? Traditional male attributes of aggression and stoicism and pragmatism have been demonised. Just look at the speeding ads. Rather than attempting to moderate behaviour for all, it is necessary to attempt to emasculate young men. Even natural outlets of aggression between males in sport are sanitised. Notice nobody considers women cry too much, it's men don't cry enough.

‘Our society is not shaped by women. It is shaped by men. I have no idea how old you are, but I'm here to tell you that it was not very long …’

Society is shaped by both men and women and always has been. Do you think the feminist movement didn’t shape society? Do you think absolutely NO women were happy with their gender roles before feminism? I cant imagine a society when half of the population, who has sex as a bargaining chip, would be down-trodden for the whole of time until 20 years ago. Do you think Muslim women all want to be walking around in bikinis, and that it’s only their fathers who would disapprove? It’s ridiculous to believe women were in no way compliant to the structure of society pre feminism. Before you go on about voting, remember it was only a small amount of time considering the history of humankind most men didn’t vote either.

Our society is not shaped by women. It is shaped by men. I have no idea how old you are, but I'm here to tell you that it was not very long ago (the 60's and 70's) that a woman could not make financial decisions or living choices without the permission of her husband or father.

Yvonne,

Well Yvonne, Sotirios Sarantakos conducted research into "Marital Power in Australian Families." He found that majority of families, even prior to feminism were either matriachies, or the power was shared.

Nursing is not a particularly good example, because the matriarchy of nursing required your fathers permission, secondly whilst nurses residences tended to be ruled at times by an iron fist (iron bra), university dorms were much much more relaxed in their rules in the exact same era.

So it was the matriarchy in nursing who made the rules, not the fathers of daughters doing nursing. So your idea that society is not shaped by women simply does not match reality.

Prior to large numbers of women moving into the workforce and earning their own income, it was mostly the male who provided financial support for the family, so naturally it would be in the banks best interest to deal with the person whose income that would pay off the debt.

I suspect however that perhaps many men went along with decisions made by his wife. Today the wife makes around 70-80% of the financial decisions in a marriage, she influences the house that they buy, the car. So I doubt very strongly that this is a new trend, but a trend which had been present for a very long time, but not as noticable because until recent times(last 100 years), most income was spent trying to survive.

Lord, it's getting hot in here. Let's take off all our clothes.*

Whitty, I'm not sure if you're deliberately not getting some of Yvonne's point, or really not getting them. I think she was talking about flashing that was intended to frighten or intimidate, not stripping off for fun. This is a well-documented desire some people have. Women and men stripping or flashing at Mardi Gras, conversely, are generally trying to entertain and attract, not scare you.

Someone flashed me quite recently. He saw me walking up my street at night and hid in an alcove, then jumped out, waved his erect penis at me, and called me something unmentionable. He was laughing. His intent was not to entertain or attract. I'm not sure what it was in all its Freudian complexity, but he *really* wanted to scare me. Few men or women find this kind of sexual kink satisfying, but some do.

For the record, I wasn't scared. I know flashers are generally just that. But my husband was scared for me. Incidentally, we flash each other all the time. I find *that* exciting.

Also, about seeing other men naked, I think Yvonne was trying to find an example similar to yours. You said you found the painting of the women masturbating beautiful. I'm sure I would too. Personally, I'd find an erotic picture of a man masturbating beautiful as well. (To be very frank I think I have some downloaded on my computer.) I think Yvonne's question is would you? Would most men?

Maybe they would. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. But it is a good question.

Lastly, you keep on about the speeding ads, and rightly so. You've convinced me. But I think most women relate. We feel like that hourly - our bums are too big, our boobs not big enough, we're too old, etc, etc. As I said before, this is not "all men's fault" or whatever you think feminists think. But it is so. So why don't we work on improving culture's sexual belittling together?

* Jokes!

Vanilla,

I cant imagine being itimidated by a naked woman. Someone being naked amongst the clothed is also normally associated with vunerability. But to answer your question, being hererosexual I would be indifferent to a painting of a naked man masturbating. I can anticipate you bringing in homophobia, but I think the reason the picture would be unnaceptable is that a man's sexuality is considered threatening. I haven't tried to blame either sex for this.

I still think there is difference in attitudes to men vs women flashing and masturbating. A woman doing either is cheeky or adventurous or 'liberated', a man doing either is dirty and perverted.

About the commercials I think it bites a lot harder when the message is coming from the government. I think what Yvonne is saying really equates to it's all mens fault, as she stating that 'society' has been created by men and women have had no part in it.

You seem to differ from Yvonne in this, and I noticed you didn't refute any of the last paragraph from my earlier post. But note women already have the stage on body image problems, sexism, discrimination, and it does little to help men's plight to reactively relate women's problems in response to any men's issues. This is the root of my problem with feminism and it's effect of creating a bias against men by drowning out any men's issues as if they threaten women's exclusive victim status.

This is illustrated in the government deciding just one depiction of domestic violence by women against men would so weaken the message of their domestic violence adverts.

As I posted earlier, the very term 'feminist' ensures an approach not toward equity, but assumes women to be in a weaker position, searching toward equity with men. This makes any claim a man might make for equity in any area invalid, as women are the ones in supposed need of equity. These are the terms of gender politics.

I have enjoyed our discussions and apologise for my generalisation of feminists, but I generalise from my experiences.