Vanilla I think James' point relates to what I hinted about earlier about the attitudes in society towards men's sexuality vs. women's.

The best way I can sum it up is a painting I saw in a pub I loved in London, of a women masturbating, and it was erotic and beautiful at the same time, and obviously and rightfully socially acceptable to have it hanging there.

I then thought about if it was a picture of a man doing the same. I'm sure it would be considered dirty and disgusting, and not socially acceptable. I really believe this is not all in my head.

Then I started to think of say a female flasher vs male flasher, and the different reactions each would get. Then you think of the suspicion about any male who works in a job involving young children. I also discussed in one of my posts the different attitudes to David Hamilton and Germaine Greer's books. Look at the different attitudes and sentences handed down to Female teachers that have relationships with children compared to men. When two drunken people get drunk, the man has to be responsible for the womens actions in relation to confirming consent.

It's all part of the PR war. Men are seen as predators, and not to be trusted. Women rail against the whole madonna whore thing, and you see articles such as Audreys article castigating men's attitudes to women in Zoo magazine but women's attitude to men's sexuality needs examining too.

Feminists have been guilty of perpetuating this all men are potential rapists idea, but ignore the fact most are capable of it, and very few take advantage of it.

When men see adverts like the Violence against Women one by the government, and the speeding advert attacking mens body image and sexuality, they seem them knowing full well that such an attack against women would never be allowed.

Vanilla, I can relate to your story about your parents and your relationship with your father. My father also married the cleverest, funniest and prettiest woman, with her own opinion about just everything. My parents had some great arguments (debates). Generally a consensus was reached, sometimes one came up with the best argument and 'won'! Because there was love and respect in their relationship, the object was never to feel worthy by annihilating or diminishing the other.

Whitty, I admire your ability to deconstruct in best modern 'leftist feminist' style my language. You have a point that our language is shaped by the environment we are in.

My husband refers to me as, 'the mother of MY children', 'MY house' etc, should I put a stop to this? Is he claiming sole ownership do you think? Or is he having a conversation in which I was not part so a joint statement didn't seem necessary or perhaps even relevant?

I would only be bothered, and my husband ditto, if one was expressing sole ownership with both of us together part of a conversation. And even then it would need to be taken in context.

My husband does not classify himself as a feminist man, but a feminist supporter. He does see himself as a modern man living in this age, as opposed to his father who, though until his death also lived in this age, had some values regarding women that were acceptable quite a long time ago, he was not a modern man. A woman had a particular place in society and so did a man. If either went into the other's 'realm' was suspect and detrimental to the well-being of society.

These values affected his sisters for instance and now his widow. Contrary to values that my father had regarding women. My sister, brothers and I grew up with identical expectations and values regarding education, respect and regard for self and others, and very importantly, life choices. My father, maybe even more so than my mother, encouraged me to become the woman that I am.

Whitty: "...I then thought about if it was a picture of a man doing the same. I'm sure it would be considered dirty and disgusting..."

That's an amazing example. I agree with everything you write in your last post about men. (And I hadn't thought about the speeding ad until your brought it up. You're right.) I just disagree that life's a bowl of roses for chicks. We get assaulted by unrealistic images of femininity hourly (and before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, I'm NOT blaming men for that - I think culture's a complex mix and there's many issues at play).

Is it not possible that a woman can say one thing - even a positive thing - about gender on this board without getting attacked?

Because, seriously, you are honestly offended by Yvonne referring to "the father of my children"? Would you be offended by a bloke saying "the mother of my children"? You said on another thread that you hate political correctness - that's about as pc as you can get.

You and James and HRS often attribute things to feminists. What frustrates me about this is that *I'm* a feminist, and I seldom agree with those things. I associate with feminists, and ditto - they're clever people with happy, successful relationships with men who *don't* appear to think their partners are crazy extremists. Nor do I see extreme feminist views coming from the women on this board. I appreciate that some women may think and write those things, but can't you understand how frustrating it is to be told that you believe things you most certainly don't? To hear that others think you would accuse your beloved grandfathers of being rapists and abusers simply because you passionately hold the view that all people should be equal under the law? Isn't that what frustrates you also?

That's why I'm compelled to stick up for myself whenever I hear "feminists think x". Maybe we think x. Maybe we think y. Maybe we think the whole gamut from a to z.

Whitty, that was a great post you wrote. Challenging, and confronting with issues that are indeed uncomfortable.

Re seeing paintings of naked women vs naked men. Who is it exactly that finds portrayal of naked men disturbing? Women or other men? Germaine Greer would not object to a good looking naked man and neither would I. It is all in the context.

I agree with you that sentencing female teachers who abuse students differently to male teachers is wrong. But the fact is that the judiciary is largely made up of men. Why do they think that there is a difference? I really don't think you can lay that at the feet of feminists.

There are other issues you raise. I just think it is not possible to just lay the blame at the feet of feminists. I also think a lot has to do with how men view masculinity and what is macho.

That is were the speeding ad comes in. It is mainly young men who are killing themselves on the road. Why is that? Do young men behave on the road the way they do to impress other males or females of their daring manliness? The ads implies it has to do with macho behaviour and a macho man must be 'well endowed'. Feminism cannot be blamed for this presumption. If men disagree with this and come up with a different reason than they should speak up. There are lives at stake.

Everything you raised should indeed be examined. Including how some women view men. I cringe when I hear some women speak of men. They are very rarely feminists, but women who actually see themselves as 'real women' who want 'real men'. Whatever that means. These kind of statements just tend to make my eyes balls roll back into my head.

Men must examine and challenge how they see themselves and are viewed by society and some women. Not only attitudes from women, but most certainly from other men. Men in politics, men in the judiciary, men in advertising, the men who own magazines.

Vanilla,

'can't you understand how frustrating it is to be told that you believe things you most certainly don't?'

Certainly! I have been told through various channels all my upbringing how terrible this patriachal society of evil men is responsible for the terrible plight of women. How ALL men's attitude to women is responsible for all women's body image problems, and how everything wrong with society can be directly attributable to men, while women are the devine, selfless, altruistic, emotionally stronger and more loving gender.

It's like I say the PR war has been won. I suppose I should give up fighting it.

I suppose I try to even out the bias for myself in illusttrating that men can actually be worse off than women, and even heaven forbid women aren't totally innocent.

'Would you be offended by a bloke saying "the mother of my children"? '
No. I realise that was over the top. I do feel a lot of women think they own the kids and have more right to them than men. I think the Laws also back this up. In this instance I feel I am using feminist arguing tactics back at them. Notice how PC tactics are only valid in one direction.

Yvonne,

I just noticed you perhaps understood where Vanilla did not.-> Whitty, I admire your ability to deconstruct in best modern 'leftist feminist' style my language.

'Who is it exactly that finds portrayal of naked men disturbing? Women or other men?'
I would say women. Think of flashers. If a woman flashed me I'd be excited and I think most men would be. If a man flashes a woman maybe she would be intimidated. It's women's fear of men that leads to the attitudes. This fear is as destructive as a fear of black people in terms of violent crime for example.

'I really don't think you can lay that at the feet of feminists.' A lot of feminst doctrine decries that problems in society are the sole responsibility of men. Why cant both men and women be held responsible for society?

Yvonne,

See this is exactly my problem. 'society and some women'. Men are seen as responsible for society.

'Not only attitudes from women, but most certainly from other men.' Men are seen as primarily responsible for the attitudes of society towards men? Why is it that feminism puts the onus on men to change the attitudes of society towards women?

'Men in politics, men in the judiciary, men in advertising, the men who own magazines.'

The few men (few compared to all men, not to women) who are in power do no shape 'society'. Those who vote, and those who consume (I think more so these days) shape society.

Also have you heard the saying 'the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world'. How are the attitudes of men responsible for society and it's laws, and women blameless, when a lot of the time these very men have been raised by women.

My point about the speeding ad is that it is irrelevant what the purpose or psychology of the ends is, the means would be unacceptable if it was aimed at women.