HRS, my article doesn't say positive things about the Bra Boys because I don't think they're a positive group. The surfing's great, but any group that's involved with violence or criminality or whatever isn't positive.

Can I ask you (you don't have to do it of course) to get the doco out on DVD and give it a watch?

"I don’t think Darlene or most of the women here see the pack/tribalism mindset as wrong. It’s the dark, destructive (particularly misogynist, racist, homophobic and/or megalomaniac) side of this mindset that earns the contempt of many women and men."

Thank you for articulating that so well.

Darlene,

The documentary didn't paint the Bra Boys as a perfect organisation, it was focused on the positive impact it had on the lives of young men who would have otherwise turned to drugs and 'inland' street gangs that exhibit much more of the negative mindset that SJF identified.

It presented them as a much lessor evil than the other options available to the disadvantaged young men. Comparing them to the blantent violence and bigtory in the other movies is quite unfair.

Darlene/Anna Winter, perhaps the most objectionable part of your discourse (I have to assume you are as you say a woman) is how you muddy the waters about people...real people...you write about, like the Bra Boys.

You shine no light whatsoever on anything and sow misunderstanding and prejudice. That is awful.

It's also very unfortunate when you do so at the same time as defending yourself as feminist.

You're entitled to your opinions but so too are other feminists to ours.

Despsis, I take your point, but surely it’s never either or. That is, joining a surfing gang or lapsing into criminality. Also, the line between those two options is somewhat blurred.

I certainly appreciate that it’s tougher to achieve things when you come from the wrong side of the tracks. The film was made by a Bra Boy. It is supportive of the Bra Boys. There’s more to the story than the movie was prepared to tell.

Others disagree with that analysis, which is fine.

Kellyanne, I'm not Anna. I use my real name to write and I trust my photo doesn’t make me look too much like a bloke.

You’re entitled to your view, but I don’t agree with it. Frankly, I'm not sure what your view is (or why you consider your views to be feminist when you’ve basically been supportive of comments that have been uncritically supportive of the Boys), and I’m not sure if you’ve seen the film.

If I felt you were going to respond with something more than personal abuse, I’d ask what you as a woman (you’re using a female name so I presume you’re a woman) think about the lack of woman in the film. I’d ask you whether you think it’s feasible that groups (any groups) dominated by a particular uniting ethos (e.g. “My Brother’s Keeper) has the potential to have a negative side. Unless all those bikie gangs just like to knit in their spare time, of course. I’d also ask you what you think about R.W.Connell’s view that working-class men are known to adopt ultra-masculine behavioural traits to compensate for their lowly status. Do you think ultra-masculine traits are always positive towards women?

If you want to engage in discourse, well, do it. However, if you just come up with the same old trite “you’re a useful fool” etc stuff, don’t waste energy that could be used for more useful things like writing your own article about some topic you’re interested in.

If you're just going to be insulting, let's call it quits and agree to disagree.

Sorry Darlene. You are not really a worthy opponent.

And most importantly, you lack heart, compassion, empathy or even the elementary species understanding that most, I do believe, are either born with or achieve with age. No wonder you don't recognise this as feminism.

Gee Kellyanne etc, thanks for the synopsis of my charcater.

You mighn't be shocked to learn that I'm taking it with a grain of salt (and a perplexed shake of the head).

I'll trust that you won't be wasting anymore of your energy insulting me on both this site and Larvatus Prodeo, given that I'm not a worthy opponent and all.

Have a good evening.