Having spent a number of years surfing in Australia and some other countries, I know that you have to be very fit to be able to surf well.

Anyone who becomes involved in drugs, an unhealthy lifestyle or gang fights is probably not a surfer at all.

So far as women being oppressed at the beach, the number of topless women or women laying around in tiny bikinis on beaches throughout Australia is testimony to just how oppressed women really are in this country.

What Crap...this has no substance, does not enlighten us on anything, and merely illustrates that you have a chip on your shoulder. You are not qualified to write on men or what they need or what they do, you are a spectator being a woman so how would you know, just like we men are not qualified to tell you why you do things and what you need.

Unfortunately, i feel you are a feminist and a classist rolled into one.

Why where there no women in the movie? because it is not about women.

and this

"is just another version of the identity blue-collar men have used for generations to make up for their modest status"

what is this? You have no idea your topic, and your skew towards your own feminist agenda. I would be very interested to hear your background and why you are so far away from the crux.

You have achieved nothing from this article, and i cannot see why OO hasd even thought it worthy of inclusion.

And so you know, i went to university with a bra boy, so you are far from corrent on some of your claims regarding too.

"Though Bra Boys, which was recently released on DVD, gives us no insight into how females living in Maroubra cope with their lot..."

How hilarious. Have you been to Maroubra? You seriously want us to contemplate how girls from Sydney's eastern suburbs "cope with their lot"...

After we have done that, maybe we could contemplate how girls from Palm Beach, North Curl Curl, Coogee or even the poor girls from Rose Bay cope with their lot also.

HRS
'So far as women being oppressed at the beach, the number of topless women or women laying around in tiny bikinis on beaches throughout Australia is testimony to just how oppressed women really are in this country.'

I fully agree, but without the irony. Societies that pressure women to wear as little as possible and societies that pressure women to cover themselves up are two sides of the one patriarchal coin.

SJF
I think there has been considerable amount of pressure on girls to cover up so they won’t get skin cancer, but most don’t.

It is ironic to see the male life guard with protective clothing from the sun, when nearby there are girls lying on the beach in next to nothing. In 20 years time, they will be having pieces of skin removed, almost guaranteed

There has also been women allowed into men’s surfing competitions, but no male has ever been allowed into women’s surfing events, so some patriarchy there is in surfing.

There has been talk of few girls surfing, and the reason is because so often the girls don’t develop enough strength in their arms to paddle out through the break. They keep getting washed back onto the beach, so they give up.

But most of the boys will keep trying and in a while they get enough strength in their arms to paddle out and catch some decent waves and learn how to surf.

The author doesn’t know what they are writing about, and obviously wants male surfers to feel guilty in some way. I'm a male, and after years of surfing, I don’t feel guilty.

What odd and rather angry responses.

I am heartened by the idea that if people respond with such enmity, one must have touched on a truth that people don’t want to concede.

I come from a working-class background, but that’s not even relevant.

Masculine tribes (like tribes of females) can have their positive aspects, but if you don’t want to admit that they can also have negative traits (e.g. violence against those who don’t fit the mould) well you are blinkered.

Being blinkered doesn’t change anything.

Oh my god Darlene....

you realy are in a world of your own arnt you.

listen to yourself, and what you got out of the comments above:

"if people respond with such enmity, one must have touched on a truth that people don’t want to concede."

lol. you wish Darlene, we are angry because you dont know what your talking about and this story is merely a vehicle to push your own left wing agendas. It is disturbing you interpret people thinking your off with the fairies with your article striking a chord and having a grain of truth to it. lol.

"I come from a working-class background" well if you do, you would truly have an insight into the material you have worked with, therefore i find this a little hard to believe.

Other movies like Boyz in the hood didnt have any white people in it, is this something worth jumping up and down about? no, because it is about African Americans, just like th bra boys movie is not about women.

Why dont you do your own movie, Bra Chicks, with the other working class girls in your 'hood'.

Darlene,
I have been involved in many sports, and the least class orientated sport I have ever been involved in is surfing, and the most class orientated sport was yachting.

Women have been allowed to compete in men’s surfing competitions and possibly win prize money from that competition, but men have not been allowed to compete in women’s competitions, and possibly win the prize money from that competition.

There is a surfing magazine for female surfers only, available from your local newsagency. There have also been a number of women’s surfing films produced, that hardly had a male in them.

So far as surfing is concerned, the biggest problem would probably be overcrowding, which does not fit your definition of it being a class orientated sport.

Basically, you don’t know what you are writing about, but your article is just another thinly disguised attempt to make males feel guilty of something or other

This could have been a great article. It would have helped if the writer had hang out at Maroubra for a day or so. The article seems totally informed by the film, which is a bit like understanding Vietnam by going to a film travel night.

It's not a feminist issue. It's not Puberty Blues in reverse. It's one of poverty, gangs and survival.

Cheryl, the post originally appeared on Larvatus Prodeo as a short review of the documentary, Bra Boys. I don't think David Stratton has to chuff off to every location that appears in a film before he reviews the movies.

The notion that it's not a feminist issue is absurd. There is a reason that women are virtually invisible in the film.

HRS, I think surfing is a great sport. Unless the Bra Boys were fibbing, they see themselves as belonging to (or coming from) a particular class, and let's face it, there are no women in their gang.

Realist, I didn't realise I had to walk around with a tattoo saying "working class". Grandpop was a shearer; dad was a mailman turned bar tender; lived in public housing, I left school originally at 15 or 16 (went to university as a mature-age student).

There's a reason I mentioned other movies in the piece (e.g. Once Were Warriors) because such films show that there are victims of such "tribes" or "gangs".

Also, please note that my last article for this site was about the Megan Meier case. The Meier case was an example of the negative feminine. That is, young girls banded together in a group can be very cruel

Darlene - with respect your article is based on a couple of false premises. Despite the film trying to make out otherwise, Maroubra is not even remotely working class - its at the upper end of the upper middle class populated entirely by professionals and prosperous tradies. Its close enough to UNSW to have a couple of student dives that double as surfie dives (contrary to your suggestion, they do blend quite seamlessly) and there is some government housing left over from the 70's (when it was a bit closer working class), but in 2008 we are talking the posh end of Sydney with a lifestyle to match. The kiosk at Maroubra does a mean Allpress soy latte and the newsagent sells out of Financial Reviews every weekend. Its that sort of place.

Nor is Maroubra an enclave from which locals cannot escape (though the queue for buses into town on a weekday morning can make it feel that way), condemning them to some fictional subculture centred on the "bra boys". Its one beach in the eastern suburbs of Sydney.

The 'bra boys "image" is mostly an invention of the Daily Telegraph, written by creative journos to fill pages and exploited by the lads concerned in order to fund their legal defense, surfing lifestyle and now to get into parties and the style pages.

More relevant to the points you make though is that girls (and boys) from Maroubra tend to have things rather good. The schools are good, every type of extra-curricular activity is to hand, they are from rich homes and if one doesn't like the 'bra boy subculture, one can hang out with another of the zillion or so cliques in Sydney's eastern suburbs and inner city.

Ultimately, I think the responses to your article are based not so much on your "touching on a truth", but your promoting a fiction that the 'bra boys hold some special place of relevance in eastern Sydney - or even Maroubra.

Hope that helps your understanding.
Cheers
md-

Pseud prole-fagging pieces like this contribute zilch, xcept p'haps to the ego of the blogger who gets to indulge his/her camp obsession, tip a bucket, ignore contra-indication, depth and fundamental facts, and con and/or comfort idiotic, like-minded others.

No mention either of Aboriginality of many Bra Boys.

.
The article is somewhat redolent of a smug superficiality ,
" I'm soooo smarty pants and understand the inner psyche of everyone because I've seen the movie "
I would put to you that you have no clue as to men behavior tough you can observe their effects , ergo you can pass judgment from on high .

No woman can claim to speak for men in general , you are not qualified !

.

HRS
‘I think there has been considerable amount of pressure on girls to cover up so they won’t get skin cancer, but most don’t.’

What this shows is that the pressure on young Western women to wear less, not more, is so strong that they will gamble with the probability of death or disfigurement in the future in order to rake up desirability points in the here and now.

‘There has also been women allowed into men’s surfing competitions, but no male has ever been allowed into women’s surfing events, so some patriarchy there is in surfing.’

Girls have been allowed to enter male or 'open' surfing competitions largely because of the lack of women’s competitions. Even so, in one of the Western world’s strongest male bastions, you mean male surfers would actually WANT to enter a women’s surfing competition? Get real.

‘There has been talk of few girls surfing, and the reason is because so often the girls don’t develop enough strength in their arms to paddle out through the break. They keep getting washed back onto the beach, so they give up.’

And you wonder why women complain about patriarchal arrogance? You remind me of a filmmaker who once told me that there are so few women in film because filming schedules are back-breaking. If it makes you feel better to believe that the reason there are so few girls in surfing is because their poor little arms are not strong enough to paddle out through the break, and that their tiny, weeny little resolves get so easily discouraged, then by all means do so. However, your ignorance of the psychology of male exclusiveness is breathtaking.

It seems that most of those who've commented thus far haven't seen the film that Darlene Taylor's article is about, nor considered that it's written as a film review rather than a deep sociological analysis.

I've seen the film, and I grew up in Sydney surf culture - albeit on the northern beaches rather than on the southside. The film certainly makes some claims about class and its role in shaping the 'Bra Boys' gang, focusing as it does on a dysfunctional family living in Housing Commission flats that were situated fortuitously close to the beach that apparently was the thing that enabled them to survive and ultimately prosper - at least in their own terms.

The film purports to present a documentary truth about the lives of these people, and is aimed at a general audience - most of whom presumably aren't familiar with the particular cultural milieu of the Maroubrs surf, gang and drug scene. My impression of the Bra Boys in that context is that they're a bunch of grommet street kids who've grown up to be adult thugs with redeeming features.

And yes, I agree that the almost complete absence of women in the film - and hence, appparently, from the lives of the Bra Boys - is worthy of comment. As a bloke, I've always been a bit suss about men who need to join gangs - or, indeed, exclusive clubs of any kind.

Overall, as a documentary film I think it portrayed the "Bra Boys" in as positive a light as it could, but ultimately they appear thuggish, puerile and ugly to this reviewer :)

Morgan gives it 2 stars.

SJF, there's something about this exchange...

HRS: "I think there has been considerable amount of pressure on girls to cover up so they won’t get skin cancer, but most don’t."

SJF: "What this shows is that the pressure on young Western women to wear less, not more, is so strong that they will gamble with the probability of death or disfigurement in the future in order to rake up desirability points in the here and now."

... that reminds me of this exchange from The West Wing:

Sam: Where d'you get the bathrobe?
C.J.: The gym.
Sam: There are bathrobes at the gym?
C.J.: In the women's locker room.
Sam: But not the men's.
C.J.: Yeah.
Sam: Now, that's outrageous. There's a thousand men working here and fifty women.
C.J.: Yeah, and it's the bathrobes that's outrageous.

Darlene,

There are no females in the Bra boys.

And?

If it is a case that you do not like to see a group of only one gender, then write a letter to the Office of Women in your state, or in the federal government, and find out how many males are in it.

Also write a letter to the Sex Discrimination Commission, and find out how many males are in it.

Also research any equity department in any university in this country, and find out how many males are employed in the equity department of that university.

I tend to think that those types of organisations have more relevance to Australia as a whole than the Bra boys of Maroubra beach.

SJF,
If women are so peeved off about surfing or any other sport played by men, then there is nothing to stop them from developing their own sport.

It appears to be the same situation, where a sport is developed by men, women enter into that sport, and then complain that it is dominated by mens.

So maybe women should develop their own sport for once. New water sports that have been developed recently include windsurfing and kiteboarding, and there is no reason why others can’t be developed.

Or maybe whinging about men is now a sport. Maybe it should go into the Olympic games.

HRS. To save Darlene the trouble, and cause I was interested, I looked up the sex discrimination commission. It's part of HREOC. There are three men and one women on the board.

There aren't any "equity studies" programs at any universities I could find. Which universities are you thinking of?

"If women are so peeved off about surfing..." SJF said nothing to indicate she was peeved off about surfing, she was reacting to the fact that you had a problem, because you don't have access to women's comp prize money. If you, or any of your female friends, have problems with discriminatory surfing comps, I recommend you direct them to the relevant club. This website can help you: http://www.surfingaustralia.com/index.aspx

This forum isn't really appropriate place.

HRS: "Or maybe whinging (sic) about men is now a sport. Maybe it should go into the Olympic games."

If whingeing about women was a sport, I reckon a certain sock puppet would be a gold medal contender - eh Timkins?

"Since women are often portrayed as victims in feature films about working-class men, their non appearance in Bra Boys could be a sign there are things the filmmakers do not want the audience to know about."

Because there's nothing working-class men enjoy more than victimising women!

"The legal trouble Jai and Koby Abberton found themselves in during the making of the documentary makes the “beach or prison” argument unsustainable."

They were not convicted of any charges. They didn't end up in the 'prison' life that dichotomy refers to.

"There is something frustrating about the acceptance by the Bra Boys of such a uniform idea of what it means to be both a man and from Maroubra."

Yeah, it's so frustrating when men decide for themselves what being a man should mean. They should be the type of men women want them to be.

"Even after causing such strife, Hines apparently remained part of the brotherhood."

Love? Forgiveness? Family? You do understand these concepts right?

"I am heartened by the idea that if people respond with such enmity, one must have touched on a truth that people don’t want to concede."

Or perhaps you're talking crap and people would rather not see it propagated unchallenged.

"The notion that it's not a feminist issue is absurd. There is a reason that women are virtually invisible in the film."

Because everything has to be about women? What is this secret reason you keep going on about?

I see feminists frequently suggest that men should tackle their own issues and not take issue with the way feminist focus on their female ones. This is a film that shows how young boys dealt with being victims of childhood neglect and formed a brotherhood to replace their absent families. There are few females featured in the film, because they are generally not within the scope of the film. If you think there are important feminist issues to be covered, go make your own film.

SJF: "And you wonder why women complain about patriarchal arrogance?"

Please go learn some basic biology.

I don't remember there being a statement that this movie was an all encompassing synopsis of the socio dynamic of Maroubra. It's about a bunch of fellas and where they grew up. Simple, isn't it?.

Why do these fem-bot-nazi's have to don their PC doctor martens and gutter stomp every piece of literature and film that doesn't cover the plight of every single 'cause celebre' the militant wing of the left/rainbow left would like covered?. Buy a cam, and do your own. They have a story and are entitled to tell it.

What an odd article, teeming in its veiled plausably deniable resentment anf fear that it is.

The article screams that odd-ball 'what-about-me' refrain of the perpetually insecure. Hey, its your world, them boyz are just in it, but much to your chagrin, not of it.

Oh yeah, and yuppies do ascend from the working classes. They're the worst kind of know-it-all class hounds. They've seen the light ya know, and its their duty to inform the lowly, stifled and stuck social orders from which they have emerged, of their failings.

The ugly world of... mateship and masculanity. They go together of course. Uh-huh and Bwahahahahaha. And obviosuly they're both 'ugly' as the author says. Bringing this up and noting the authors projections is of course a reflection of on's own oddity and negativity. Uh-huh.

And that last bit about ill feelings towards the dead. Get over it and move on, you'll be much happer with your own sorry existence, which you project so well, in such a practical way too. "Forgive and forget" goes a long way in freeing you from yourself in this life.

Sheesh, l hope OLO doesnt actually pay money for these articles.

C J Morgan, well said. Yes, the film absolutely makes claims about the role of class in creating the Bra Boys. And yes, they do come out looking very bad.

To the person who called me a fem-bot-Nazi, I can only say thanks. Reminds me of this funny book I am reading at the moment called I am America (and So Can You) by the American satirist, Stephen Colbert. Colbert refers to Femi-Idi-Amins. Of course, Colbert is taking the piss out of a particular kind of commentator rather than feminists.

Err, I am not peeved about surfing; I am peeved about gangs or tribes. Belonging to a group can be a positive thing (I think I've said this before, but oh well), but gangs can display pathological traits. Traits that can impact on others. If you don't care about those "others", well, bully for you.

Now, excuse me while I get my PC doc martens and go for a walk.

Why someone would put fingers to keyboard to spew out their prejudice against working class and Aboriginal youth who themselves have long been the target of institutional violence and harassment is a question always worth pondering each time it occurs.

But then there is no accounting for sheer stupidity either and Darlene seems to have this attribute in spades by her arch, dismissive replies to all the critics here who've made excellent points.

Well done, contributors.

Vanilla,to update your knowledge,
The Sex Discrimination Commission is a part of the HREOC, and there have been very few men actually employed in the Sex Discrimination Commission. There have been about 7 permanent Sex Discrimination Commissioners, all female except for 1 male who was there on a temporary basis, so there is definitely sex discrimination in the Sex Discrimination Commission.

Most universities have some type of equity department (or an anti-discrimination department). You would be extremely lucky to find equal numbers of males to females in any equity department in any university, and quite lucky to find 1 male employed in an equity department of any university in the country. So there is definitely sex discrimination occurring in the equity departments of universities.

To say that there is sex discrimination in the Office for Women is simply understood.

Darlene,
If you want to study tribalism, just join a sporting club. I’ve seen the situation of a group of women who would sit in one stand, and not associate at any time with another group of women who sat in another stand. Maybe a feminist could take a film of that.

I’ve also seen the situation with many soccer clubs where girls are allowed to play in the boy’s teams (which normally means that other boys have to sit on the side lines and only play part of a match), but no boy of any age or level of ability is allowed to play in a girl’s team, even if the girl’s team is short of players.

Maybe a feminist could get a video camera and take a film of that, to show just how much patriarchy there actually is in Australia.

Feminists can always invent their own sports if they don’t like men’s sports or men, and if you do make a film, make sure it tells the whole story, and not just the feminist version.

Excellent points, Kellyanne? I am sorry but they have been few and far between on this post. Unless describing something as "crap" and presuming a person doesn't know what they're talking about just because you disagree with them is regarded as the height of intellectual discourse these days.

It seems that something can be described as "prejudice" if you disagree with it. As for "sheer stupidity", well, you're free to make that point, but where do you get off attacking my responses when you have resorted to such cheap abuse?

Come on, I assume you're an adult and I assume that if we were talking offline you'd be more civil. Why should I respond to someone (not you) who uses silly tired old phrases like fem-bot-Nazi. The only response to such folly is to cite a very funny satirist. Next the phrase "latte-lover" will come up.

As for working class youth, as I pointed out I was one. Of course, I am not a youth anymore, but I remember the following very well: the feeling of not knowing what the hell to do with my life, of dropping of school with nothing to show for myself but some really crap grades, of unemployment and wondering if life was worth living. Stop making presumptions and read my comments.

As for the Aboriginality thing, what's your point? The Bra Boys (using the narration of Russell Crowe) tried to make a connection between the Boys and Aboriginal people. There are Aboriginal members of the Bra Boys. The Bra Boys are multicultural in focus, but they are still exclusive. They still think they "own waves" (as if anyone can own a wave?). And as someone pointed out, the notion that a grown man has to resort to joining a group like the Bra Boys to feel like a man or to belong is sad, sad, sad.

HRS, I agree with your point about women and the way they can act like raving snobs at sports events. You might note that in an earlier comment, I mentioned that my previous post for this site was about the Megan Meier case (the case of the young girl who was bullied online by some peers and possibly the mother of one of her ex-friends). A classic case, as I said, of the negative feminine. Women can be bullies and behave badly as well. Of course, little feminist me would never argue that (err, except I have).

As I said (why do I have to keep repeating myself on this comments thread?), I don't have a problem with sport as such. I have a problem with tribalism, of gangs and pathological groups.

And for those who use the word "feminist" like it's an insult, you should know that it's a compliment. You'd have to be a strange bod indeed if you don't believe in equality.

Darlene,
From what I have heard of the Cronulla riots, certain groups of people were frequently hassling the girls on the beach, and eventually the surfies stepped in.

The concept that feminism is for equality is a very thin piece of propaganda. There is no equality in organisations such as the Sex Discrimination Commission, equity departments in universities, or the Office for Women, and they are all synonymous with feminism (and also soak up the taxpayer’s dollar)

You don’t have to join a sporting club to see the cliques formed by women. Any business company will do. Also open any women’s magazine to read articles on “How to bring out the real woman in you”.

So far as sport goes, look at sports such as soccer where the girls are allowed to play in the boy’s teams, but the boys are not allowed to play in the girl’s teams. That happens Australia wide every weekend. So who owns the soccer fields.

More equal than equal is the actual motto of feminism, but I've rarely known a feminist to tell the whole story.

Darlene, you haven't responded to any of the legitimate and specific responses to your article about the Bra Boys. Why not?

One must surmise you are a useful fool, giving feminism a bad name to boot.

Just ask Mark Bahnish.

Kellyanne, once again you have expected me to address issues when you have responded by using insults. I don't know you from a bar of soap. Handy to use such insults while just using your first name. When you can tell me what issues I should be addressing (and do so in a civil manner) than I might do so. I'm hard pressed to find much worth responding to. I can just as easily say that you didn't read my response to you because you certainly didn't respond to anything I said in it.

HRS, the Cronulla riots is another issue altogether. Certainly there was bad behaviour going on, and evidently some people didn't feel that they was being addressed by the authorities. The beach, of course, should be for everyone (or everyone who is willing to behave themselves and not have a go at others).

HRS, my feeling is that gender is certainly not the only cause of social disadvantage (although this might be less so in developing nations). For example, a working-class or unemployed man certainly has less social status in the West - in the general community - than an educated woman with money.

I'd hardly be supportive of women's magazines, and there constant stupid ideas about what a women should be.

.

Some of the fury , expressed by the male member of the forum ,is because you plain got the wrong end of this issue .
You see the pack , tribalism mind set as wrong because you are a woman
for a man it is the essential nature of being a man ,
we are dog brothers , we are pack animals .
This is a deep reality , anyone who try to change this is trying to destroy what being a man is all about
it is of course a man's road to find his own center , but the group pack , band , tribe ,clan , club is the male formative time
the essential nature of being a man are learned , respect and testing oneself above all , dealing with others in a hierarchy also .
once in a clan a man is never truly alone for the rest of his life
It is the school of life ,an alternate family
young female groups are in comparison a seething cauldron of viciousness a mad free for all where people are crushed just for fun practice ,
any thugs would recoil at such savagery
team sport is a male substitute for clan fighting ,
even women can experience its benefit

The feminine discourse is usually ignorant of basic male realities , the males are seen as wrong and perverse to brush aside the advice of women to be more like them .

.

Interesting points, Randwick.

Surely, whether men are tribal or individualistic in nature depends
on the culture and time. For example, men in Western capitalistic countries are often viewed as being individuals above all: out for themselves in business etc

As I have said before, I do think women in groups can be vicious, particularly in a psychological way.

Tribes, groups, gangs whatever can be positive (absolutely think that men have an important role in teaching boys how to be men - this can be done in sporting groups or other types of groups). However, I just feel that it's important to recognise that such groups can have be extremely negative in the way they approach outsiders and people who don't fit in (e.g. gay men).

It's correct that I can't speak for men because I'm not one, so I think it's important that men discuss their own issues.

As for one person who is leaving comments opposed to my article, the term sockpuppet comes to mind. Hello to that person.

"Kellyanne", it is the height of online rudeness to follow someone to another site and abuse them under a different name.

It's not always all about you, you know.

Darlene
Your article says very little that is positive about the Bra boys, and casts them as being somehow racist and also sexist. But what was portrayed as race riots in the press was mostly about trying to protect women on the beach and also in the car parks from being hassled by certain other people.

So far as males rejecting homosexual men, there are homosexual men throughout sports, business and government, and they quite accepted. I think the objection is when a homosexual tries to convince a heterosexual to become homosexual. That’s when the conflict starts.

So far as tribalism or prejudice is concerned, I would think the most prejudice in the country is now entered around feminism, and its continuous vilification of the male gender. I have given you a number of organisations that are taxpayer funded, but for males to join those organisations or be a part of those organisations is almost impossible, and that is based totally on whether or not they put an “M” or an “F” beside their name on an application form.

That is the other side of the story.

Randwick

‘You see the pack , tribalism mind set as wrong because you are a woman
for a man it is the essential nature of being a man ,
we are dog brothers , we are pack animals .’

This ‘essential nature’ theory does not explain why so many men are not interested in being part of a tribe or pack. It also contradicts the 90s Biddulph/Bly/Gray movement that intimidated a generation of women into staying well away from their men’s sheds for fear of desecrating the ‘essential nature’ of male isolationism.

True, human beings are herd animals, but this applies as much to women as to men. The difference is that men are subliminally conditioned to be ‘insiders’ within their society, whereas women are conditioned to be ‘outsiders’. (To give a few examples: God is a man; the species is routinely referred to as ‘man’ or ‘mankind’; the generic pronoun is ‘he’ or ‘his’; wedding ceremonies pronounce couples ‘man and wife’; nations are ‘Founded’ by ‘Fathers’; the focus of history curricula is almost exclusively on men … and on it goes.)

The attraction of packs/tribes to some men lies in the opportunity to assert their sense of dominant entitlement – over weaker (or poorer) men, women, other ethnic or racial groups, and gays, to name a few. Some women are attracted to packs/tribes for similar reasons, except that their dominance behaviour is often turned inward, onto other women, and rarely ever targets men or ethnic, racial or gay groups (except perhaps vicariously through the actions of a significant male).

I don’t think Darlene or most of the women here see the pack/tribalism mindset as wrong. It’s the dark, destructive (particularly misogynist, racist, homophobic and/or megalomaniac) side of this mindset that earns the contempt of many women and men.

.

Men bund , band , pack , team is an expression of their deepest need , particularly teenagers ,
I do not believe for one second that a half sane young man would not be in a like minded group rather that on his own given the choice
Old French proverb " a man alone is in bad company "
To find a like minded group can be a major hassle ,
Groups tend to be negative towards gay for the same reason sex was suppressed in nuns convents , it is a very powerful personal force ,
destructive of rules
the whole point of the group is to decrease one's ego to increase the group strength , someone caught up in his own world , by definition doesn't belong .
There is a view that political correctness is right , while a prety good case can be made that it elevate to equality of values , people and practices which are very objectionable , further , while pretty much everyone non.white.straight.male can claim some specificity to be respected or supported ,it has become abundantly clear that the white straight male can do no right , must be reproached for any of his sins
and for being generally beastly ,a pure product of Victorian morality

Well it feel very good to be a white straight male .
Anyone who have an issue with them will be listened
then given the interest their position deserve .

.

HRS, my article doesn't say positive things about the Bra Boys because I don't think they're a positive group. The surfing's great, but any group that's involved with violence or criminality or whatever isn't positive.

Can I ask you (you don't have to do it of course) to get the doco out on DVD and give it a watch?

"I don’t think Darlene or most of the women here see the pack/tribalism mindset as wrong. It’s the dark, destructive (particularly misogynist, racist, homophobic and/or megalomaniac) side of this mindset that earns the contempt of many women and men."

Thank you for articulating that so well.

Darlene,

The documentary didn't paint the Bra Boys as a perfect organisation, it was focused on the positive impact it had on the lives of young men who would have otherwise turned to drugs and 'inland' street gangs that exhibit much more of the negative mindset that SJF identified.

It presented them as a much lessor evil than the other options available to the disadvantaged young men. Comparing them to the blantent violence and bigtory in the other movies is quite unfair.

Darlene/Anna Winter, perhaps the most objectionable part of your discourse (I have to assume you are as you say a woman) is how you muddy the waters about people...real people...you write about, like the Bra Boys.

You shine no light whatsoever on anything and sow misunderstanding and prejudice. That is awful.

It's also very unfortunate when you do so at the same time as defending yourself as feminist.

You're entitled to your opinions but so too are other feminists to ours.

Despsis, I take your point, but surely it’s never either or. That is, joining a surfing gang or lapsing into criminality. Also, the line between those two options is somewhat blurred.

I certainly appreciate that it’s tougher to achieve things when you come from the wrong side of the tracks. The film was made by a Bra Boy. It is supportive of the Bra Boys. There’s more to the story than the movie was prepared to tell.

Others disagree with that analysis, which is fine.

Kellyanne, I'm not Anna. I use my real name to write and I trust my photo doesn’t make me look too much like a bloke.

You’re entitled to your view, but I don’t agree with it. Frankly, I'm not sure what your view is (or why you consider your views to be feminist when you’ve basically been supportive of comments that have been uncritically supportive of the Boys), and I’m not sure if you’ve seen the film.

If I felt you were going to respond with something more than personal abuse, I’d ask what you as a woman (you’re using a female name so I presume you’re a woman) think about the lack of woman in the film. I’d ask you whether you think it’s feasible that groups (any groups) dominated by a particular uniting ethos (e.g. “My Brother’s Keeper) has the potential to have a negative side. Unless all those bikie gangs just like to knit in their spare time, of course. I’d also ask you what you think about R.W.Connell’s view that working-class men are known to adopt ultra-masculine behavioural traits to compensate for their lowly status. Do you think ultra-masculine traits are always positive towards women?

If you want to engage in discourse, well, do it. However, if you just come up with the same old trite “you’re a useful fool” etc stuff, don’t waste energy that could be used for more useful things like writing your own article about some topic you’re interested in.

If you're just going to be insulting, let's call it quits and agree to disagree.

Sorry Darlene. You are not really a worthy opponent.

And most importantly, you lack heart, compassion, empathy or even the elementary species understanding that most, I do believe, are either born with or achieve with age. No wonder you don't recognise this as feminism.

Gee Kellyanne etc, thanks for the synopsis of my charcater.

You mighn't be shocked to learn that I'm taking it with a grain of salt (and a perplexed shake of the head).

I'll trust that you won't be wasting anymore of your energy insulting me on both this site and Larvatus Prodeo, given that I'm not a worthy opponent and all.

Have a good evening.

Darlene, have no idea what you are on about now but we can safely summarise your post and all the above comments as a fairly predictable outcome all round.

Darlene,
I think you have mentioned a website named Larvatus Prodeo so as to mention a website named Larvatus Prodeo

So what kind of website is it, and is it feminist. Can males look at it or post comments to it.

OLO of course is extremely feminist, where males are described as being everything from “cavemen” to “elephants”, to “oppressors of women and their children” to “slime and snails” to “meatheads”. And this comes from those who define themselves as being feminist, and believers in equality and non-discrimination.

So is this website or blogsite of yours feminist.

You can find Larvatus Prodeo here: http://larvatusprodeo.net

Feel free to join in.

Kellyanne, we all bow down to your superior debating skills. Really, well done.

And so you should Anna-Darlene. You are always outclassed. Effortlessly. effortlessly.

We all just regret there is so little contest.

More than a few years ago I undertook a course in media studies, one particular exercise stood out and showed how a film maker can influence the audience.

The examples were two films about housing estates, one film was shot from the angle that housing estates were positive warm and friendly enviroments, the second film was shot from the angle that housing estates were cold, negative places.

Same subject but, two opposing points of view. Basically if you want to portray a negative image, then basically shots which show a positive view wind up on the editors floor.

Another classic example is here,
http://www.melaniephillips.com/diary/?p=1620

"Good grief — Israel has finally woken from its seven-year trance and asked France 2 to provide it with the entire unedited 27-minute film that was shot by France 2’s Palestinian cameraman Talal Abu Rahma, from which a 55-second excerpt was broadcast round the world that convinced people a Palestinian child, Mohammed al Durah, had been shot dead by Israeli forces as he cowered with his father behind a barrel to avoid the cross fire in a gun battle raging between Israel and the Palestinians in 2000."

The blunt truth is that truth is the first casualty in the media.

Anna Winter,
What debating skills. All Darlene has said is that the Bra boys of Maroubra beach are bad (and that’s about it).

But is this Larvatus Prodeo website feminist. Will I be called stupid male, or male patriarchy, or an oppressor, or a rapist, or an abuser and so on.

James H,
I have mostly settled on this website http://www.ericmargolis.com/archives.php
to find out what is actually occurring in the international area.

But I haven’t found anything decent yet to find out what is occurring on the national front in Australia. Have you any recommendations.

James posted this on another thread. He didn't write it - it's a quote - but as I understand it this is what you believe true of women, James? Is that correct?

"The picture is emerging of a woman who must get what she desires at all costs and must always be right. Sometimes she will deliberately claim to misunderstand something to justify doing what she wants, even though she knows it is against your wishes. She may cause problems just to attract attention to herself, because she likes to feel important.

"Creating self-doubt in her victims' minds is an integral part of her approach. She plays on their reasonableness to give her the benefit of any doubts they may have. She knows that reasonable people don't like to think badly of others and will often beat themselves up for thinking uncharitable thoughts. She always sounds so convincing. Her approach is intended to make you question whether you were correct in your thoughts about her. It slows you down. It's meant to."

Vanilla,

that quote was from Glenn Sacks in regards to his review of a book titled "Venus; the dark side" which I think would be an interesting book to read. here;

http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/01/24/venus-the-dark-side-female-sociopaths-part-iii/

The quote says "a woman" single, but you expanded that to "women" pural.

"but as I understand it this is what you believe true of women, James? Is that correct?"

Not exactly reflective listening,

"The picture is emerging of a woman(single) who must get what she desires at all costs and must always be right. Sometimes she will deliberately claim to misunderstand something to justify doing what she wants,"

This type of behaviour, I have experienced personally.

Is this what I believe to be true of all women? The answer is NO!

Do, I extrapolate my own unique personal experiences and then apply them to all women. Again the answer is NO!

I do however apply extreme caution.

Vanilla if you wrote about male sociopaths, I would not then extrapolate that you then thought all men were sociopaths.

Once upon a time I thought that if I could just learn to somehow divine what womens expectations were, so that I could try to meet them. Does that sound like a misogynist?

James, I know you're not a misogynist. I believe you have the best intentions. Nevertheless I found that piece incredibly sad.

And please - it's disingenuous to suggest it's referring to "one woman" (surely then it would be a novel!). The author is using the term "a woman" not to mean one particular woman, but one generic women - womenkind. "If a man does his best, what else is there?" A man in this sense means mankind.

I just wish you guys would see sometimes that you're just like the feminists whose thinking you keep saying you dislike. I could think of nothing more dull than a book that tried to explain that the essential nature of "a man" was one that made victims of women, that manipulated them and delighted in slowing them down.

Of course, read what you like, it's nowt to do with me. But as I said in a post to Whitty on another thread, I'm just tired of being told what I'm like and what I think of men and what feminists think of men. I think life and culture and men and women are so much more complex than these tired, outdated caricatures.

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I just needed to get that off my chest.

Well said Vanilla.

Don't take the comments here to heart Darlene. Certain posters here start metaphorically foaming at the mouth at anything that even remotely resembles feminism.
They quickly resort to disparaging comments and pretend to be victims by whatever means possible and if someone identifies with any element of feminism, they're tarred as an ideological extremist.

Heck, in once case one of these extremist anti-feminists took a satirical banner on a website that said "boys are made of snips and snails" and has blown it up to a slur on mankind.

In another case, somebody said "he and his ilk" and he tried to pretend ilk was a swearword, acting aggrieved and insulted.
So basically, anything that isn't complimentary of men is fair game.

He's still relentlessly campaigning to have the banner taken down - this is the kind of childish mindset you're dealing with, so like I said - don't take it personally.

It's very ironic that they're adopting the extremist tactics of radical feminists in their campaign, but they don't see that.

Perhaps they'll have the courage to post articles of their own someday, but that would mean the holes in their own logic would be up for criticism so I find that unlikely.

And let’s not miss the irony of Darlene’s diatribe made within an easy earshot of the elephant in the room – the global “pathological tribalism” of modern feminism.

“Bra Boys tells us a lot about how bad parenting inspired the creation of a substitute family…”, but Darlene of course conspires with her own tribe to deny it oxygen. Darlene makes no moral judgement of mothers here, nor does she even acknowledge bad mothers exist. If anything, she distances us from such thoughts by criticising the lack of females in the movie. If you accept her construct, there can be no link between bad mothers and the need for “substitute families”.

While logic tells us there are more broken families and single mothers now, than in the formative years of a budding Bra Boy, Darlene’s social commentary within her so-called movie review, is no more insightful, than her leaving a stable door wide open, then reporting her observations of a bolting horse and leaving us with just a hint of possible hidden agenda (on the part of the horse, of course).

TurnLeftThenRight, I took a look at the comments attached to Audrey Apple's article about Zoo magazine and realised that I saw quite a few familiar names and quite a few familiar arguments.

Quite incessant at commenting some of them were too, which is perfectly their right. The On Line Opinion community wasn't something that I was associated with or privy to (sometimes read the articles on the site, hardly read the comments). It's been interesting.

Your point about adopting the tactics of radical feminists is a good one. Extremists of any hue rarely do their cause any good.

Seeker, there are bad mothers, of course there are. And the impact they have on kids can be anything from neglectful to downright murderous. There are also couples who are completely destructive together. There are also fathers who are shocking (e.g. the role of the absent father is another one that can be discussed further in relation to this matter).

HRS, you are more than welcome to pop over to Larvatus Prodeo. The site has a moderation policy and doesn't allow for abusive comments. Doesn't meant that it doesn't get colourful. Feel free to have a look at LP and read the posts there (including mine) and see if the word "oppressor" and whatever are used. Not sure I've ever resorted to such use of the language, but if you can find examples let me know.

Cheers : )

.

Back to the subject ,

" When being a man is all you've got "

sincerely ,
I've always though it's all you really need and the greatest thing in the world
it is hard work to get there too, like said Dylan

" How many roads must a man walk before you can call it a man ? "

.

The term "When Being a Man is All You've Got" was the title of a journal article by an Australian academic who was discussing certain Australian movies and their portrayal of masculinity (e.g. Blackrock, which featured the late Heath Ledger). It implies a lack of things that give a person social capital (e.g. a certain kind of employment), but Randwick you make a good point. Who we all are as individuals matters more than the externals that we are told are important(e.g. beauty or wealth or power).

"How many roads must a man walk down...?" It's a great question (great song). The "roads" - with all their bumps, diversions and corners - make us are all what we are.

Darlene as usual evades the crucial questions. The superficiality and callousness of this woman seems to know no bounds.

As a woman, and a feminist of 50 years, as well as being Aboriginal, I apologise for her to everyone here.

Seeker: your remarks are among the most pertinent and important I've read on any blog - about anything. I want very much to reply to them and will tomorrow and meanwhile, thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for articulating them.

Turnrightthenleft
I see that you are still writing voluminous amounts about me.

But you have still not come up with a feminist website that I should look at, other than the feminist website that you previously recommended that had slogans such as “A Woman Needs a Man, like a Fish Needs a Bicycle”, and “Queers Who Seek Equality With Straights Lack Ambition”

Keep searching Turnrightthenleft, and one day you may find something.

Darlene,
I might have a look through your website one day. I am currently trying to find a website that can give me some decent information on what is happening in Australia, but that task is not easy.

For example :- A large Australian newspaper has a blogsite titled “All men are liars”, and it does seem that it is now obligatory to vilified men in the media, like it has become in Australian universities.

Your term “absent fathers” is a recently invented term that is negative and vilifying of of fathers. You may be interested in this study of those so called “absent fathers” (and it is the only study ever undertaken in that area to my knowledge).

http://www.melbourneinstitute.com/hilda/Biblio/cp/conf-p04.pdf

I haven’t had too much contact with the Bra boys or Sydney surfers, but I have surfed breaks along the east coast of Australia, as well as in Portugal, Spain, France and a number of the islands in Tahiti. I have not come across too many surfers as portrayed in the Bra boys movie, and I think that movie is probably a biased view of what is happening.

But I do know that the most gender prejudiced organisations in Australia that are taxpayer funded, are also being run by women, and many of those women also call themselves feminist.

No need to apologise for Darlene, Kellyanne - unlike yours, her comments are reasonable, well articulated and make good sense. Her brief film review wasn't half bad either.

All I've read from you so far are personal attacks on Darlene Taylor, evidently arising from some issue that started somewhere else.

Darlene, the sock puppet who was formerly "Timkins" at OLO wouldn't last five minutes at LP :)

I'm just tired of being told what I'm like and what I think of men and what feminists think of men.

Vanilla.

Well Vanilla, one of the main reason that I do this is because I too, am tired of being told what men are like and what men think of women.

Human relationships and interactions can be extremely complex. It perhaps almost impossible to cover all the tangents.

As too outdated caricatures, it seems that both Darlene and Audrey are prepared to use some of those outdated caricatures, so I don't think that some of the outdated caricatures are outdated at all.

Some people will fight fair, others will use dirty tactics.

Sometimes someone might get under my skin and when that happens I usually go away and think about it and ask why it is happening. The vast majority of what happens in this forum I do not take personally, if someone disagrees with me strongly, that is fine.

Recently for the first time I objected to a certain post, I am not going to now or ever try and rub the other persons face in it. Maybe they will respect that, maybe that wont.

I am interested in what the opinions of other people, sometimes I will test those opinions.

I know that if I am going to argue with a woman, I will more than likely lose, but then what the hell. Sure there are some blokes here that I really wouldn't want be in a debating competition against either.

A long time ago in a course I did, all the participants were read the same story, yet almost everyone managed to interpret the story differently. this is because we all apply our own values to interpret and this is called "value judgements".

Perhaps the most glaring example is one culture applies their own values to judge another culture's right and wrong.

Vanilla, Darlene and TLTR,

a few years ago there was an article about how feminist language was coming back to haunt them.

Things like social justice, etc.

I cant at present remember which author it was, but they pointed out that in the feminist research into DV used what is known as the conflict scale, however as soon as that scale began to be used other researchers, whose research did not match the feminist researchers, the conflict scale then began being critised by feminist researchers.

So if I sound like the radical feminists who I criticise.

I am totally comfortable with that.

HRS,

I'm not sure if there is a website that tells you what is going on "nationally", but if you want to look at a wide-ranging discussion of education, you can go to the forum at www.platowa.com, while there is a fair bit of politics at www.pollbludger.com. For more daily events, there are always the newspaper blogs at The Australian.

Chris C,
Thanks, I will have a look at those websites.

In terms of news or information regards what is occurring nationally, then I have been trying to find a source that is not directly connected to newspapers, as I think it is evident that many journalists will think of their jobs before they think of delivering unbiased news or information.

.

For , fresh unprocessed quality news

http://www.reuters.com/news

The rest is just a regurgitation

.