Lev

Is it clear I have comprehended or clear I have not comprehended?? Even after your 40 odd papers you could still do with a little proofreading.

Living in your Pollyanna world where everyone is nice to everybody else and there are no bad guys must be great.

I suppose you can name many conflicts where the two parties have decided to lay down arms and live together sharing power happily after 50 years of war? More to the point, do you actually believe that Hamas etc would want to be part of your fantasy world? My point although you have determinedly failed to see it, is that the one state solution is the Palestinians preferred model for a REASON. Their useful idiots in the west are deliberately pushing the idea of a one state solution which seems reasonable and fair to a cursory examination, yet will be dominated by Palestinians in practise.

PHD in wishful thinking if you ask me. By the way, you’re not the only one with a degree and I wouldn’t be making it public that I was a graduate of the social sciences. Parasite is a word that springs readily to mind. Toilet and paper are two more.

In any case there is NO WAY the Israelis are going to go for it. And anyone who has HALF A BRAIN knows it. So for someone who is criticising others for lack of real, workable solutions you are looking mighty silly, Professor.

Paul

Pray tell me why my 'comparisons of Israel with other western democracies are shallow and don’t bear scrutiny'.

To cite the Irish and British conflict doesn't support anything other than my comparison. That situation has been long resolved according to the ways of free liberal democracies. The rights and obligations of all individuals in Ulster have been recognised and structures to ensure the continuation of that has been put in place...Or haven't you noticed that?

The French...really ... are they still colonialists?

You should realise the Western Liberal Democracies have abandoned those practises and have grown from those experiences.

The point of comparison between Germany, Japan and the West and Israel and Palestine is occupation...why introduce irrelevancies?

You just cannot or refuse to make the link between the occupation to resistance. Most clear thinkers accept attacks on Israel would cease if the proposal of the Arab League was applied. That specifically guarantees Israel's security in return for the two state solution, which you claim to support. But I suspect you like the Israeli Government baulk at the '67 borders expectation.

Yep I agree the Northern European Socialists are indoctrinated.

Yep good to see you acknowledge and agree Israel is a society dominated by the military and their attitudes. That's a good start Paul. Don't you ever wonder how Israeli society would be if it was dominated by liberal democrates and their unique values?

Danielle,

By definition, Israel is a currently colonialist state. It's has extended its territory beyond international law, it establishes settler colonies and rules over an indigenous population.

From your personal experiences you should know that some indigenous people use terrorism to fight occupations. If you had learned from the experience you would realise that with ending the colonial rule, you end the terrorism.

Paul,

The most obvious of a conflict that lead to peace example bears remarkable similarity; South Africa. I also note that both you and Danielle have a very similar attitude towards Arab Muslims as pro-apartheid supporters had towards blacks: "They can't be trusted", "They're not interested in peace", "They can't govern themselves", "We'll be taken over" etc.

Whilst currently a minority of Palestinians and Israelis support the one democratic and secular state option, it has two great strengths: Firstly, it is morally the right thing to do. Secondly, because it is feasible.

It is risible to suggest that a discontigious Palestinian mini-state could be set up in the 1967 borders - will Israel dismantle the illegal apartheid wall? Will they give up their closed military areas? Because these are *pre-conditions* for an independent state.

Yes, the proposal for one secular and democratic state is a minority one - but one with wide support. From the Orthodox Jews it is supported by Natueri Karta and the Satmar Hasidim groups. In Switzerland a group founded by a Palestinian lawyer has several hundred members, both Jews and Palestinians. In Jersualem there is Rabbis For Peace and the Emil Touma Institute. The Right of Return Coalition (Al-Awda) support the solution. There are groups advocating the position in the UK and the US, with the Greens adopting it in their platform. Even Qadhafi, with Libya just elected to the Security Council, supports the idea on the grounds "no other concept is capable of resolving the problem".

The strength is in its diversity, its practicality and in its rightness. Perhaps its success will not come quickly, but it will come. 'Hafrada' will end in Palestine as it did in South Africa.

Lev

You say” you would realise that with ending the colonial rule, you end the terrorism.”

This is bullsh@t. Look at India/Pakistan, Algeria, Zimababwe and there are many other examples of nations which have had increased terrorism after the end of colonial rule.

To continue with your Apartheid fantasy, are you comparing Hamas with ANC/Nelson Mandela?
Really?
Do you think the ANC were teaching their children about the glory of martyrdom? Were they bombing children’s school buses and firing rockets indiscriminately into villages? Were they pronouncing their desire to drive their enemies into the sea? Did the ANC’s allies wage three wars of extermination against the state?

The whole apartheid nonsense is a flimsy construct and intellectually dishonest. It's a case of trying to make the facts fit the theory and it's typical of the soft left, who are big on symbolism and appearances and usually short on substance.

Arabs living in Israel have virtually the same rights under the law as other Israelis. This is in stark contrast to South Africa. See the Prohibition of Mixed marriage act, the bantu education act and the reservation of special amenities act and others. Arabs have the same rights to vote and stand for the Knesset as other Israelis, this also is in direct contrast with the South African experience. Arabs make up 20% of students in universities in Israel. Mixed education was banned in South Africa. Even Nelson Mandela said he could not conceive of an Israeli withdrawal ‘if Arab states do not recognize Israel within secure borders.

Whilst there is SOME discrimination in Israel there is a very big difference between discrimination and Apartheid. It is amazing you are not as quick to label Muslims nations which commit discrimination as Apartheid regimes.

Your attempt to brand us racists is a standard tactic of the left and contributes to the intellectually stunted phenomena that is POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.

The Palestinian state suggested by the UN was always a discontiguos state. That’s the way the borders were drawn up. Once the terrorism stops there will be no need for a security fence.

Paul,

- One one hand you condemn the British in India for their brutality and on the other you claim that terrorism increased in India after independence! Which is it to be? Or are you of the opinion that States cannot commit terrorism? You also seem to be neglecting the 1965-1979 war in Rhodesia, to which contemporary terrorism pales into insignificance.

- There has been no suggestion that Hamas and the ANC are equivalent. Nevertheless the ANC, through Umkhonto we Sizwe, engaged in terrorist and military action; most notably the 1982 attack on the Koeberg nuclear power plant and the Church Street bombing in 1983, and the 1986 car-bombing of Magoo's Bar in Durban. So yes, the ANC *did* engage in terrorism. But nowhere as great as the terrorism of apartheid.

- Arabs in Israel proper have less rights as has been pointed out numerous times and to which you have finally agreed. Significantly more so however, which you have carefully avoided, is the Occupied Terrorities which are effectively Israel's bantustans. Sure, Israel proper isn't as bad as South Africa; I stated that previously. But the motivating ideology is the same, and for many on the receiving end so is the practise. Does this look like hafrada?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c8/Southafricaracialdemographics1979.png

- Once again you raise the risible furphy of suggesting that because some Muslim nations are engaging in some discriminatory practises then for some reason that special mention must be made of it in this discussion. Surely such debates would be better in a thread that's actually *about* Muslim nations? Perhaps you should write an article on the subject, and have it published here.

Lev

A possible solution to the settlemets in a two state solution would be to simply give soverignity over the settlements to the new Palestinian state, with all members of course having the the right to citizenship in the new Palestinian state. And of course that wall just needs be torn down, the land returned and reparations made to those who's homes were destroyed in its construction.

Bit simple but the obvious usually is.