Keith,

Thanks you for the link. Steven Erlanger wrote the article.

The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting found, between April 11, 2005 and August 21, 2007, grave errors in nine articles by Steven Erlanger. In one article, he stated an Israeli explosive had killed 2 children (aged 2 and 17); it had been a Palestinian explosive. Other articles correcting Erlanger’s errors have been published.

In a lengthy, front-page “New York Times” feature about Palestinian youth (March 12, 2007), Steven Erlanger denied Palestinian Hate Indocrination.

This was damningly refuted, point by point, and well referenced, by Ricki Hollander and Tamar Sternthal, who ended with the statement:

“not so much investigative journalism and analysis as it is a portrayal of a viewpoint endemic to the ‘New York Times.’”

Indeed, Hamas have been promoting, even to Palestinian toddlers, the glories of suicide-killing and hatred of Jews of Israel, with such TV shows as: The Mickey Martyr Club. Due to worldwide protests, they halted it - by having Mickey Martyr martyred. He is now replaced by “Killer Bee.”

Another program.

“Hamas: We Teach Children to Die for Allah”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2hMJnUcxGM

The most critical and daming discussion of Steven Erlanger’s work is in the “Columbia Journalism Review” (Mon 10 Sept 2007) - the watchguard for excellence and inegrity in journalism.

“Steven Erlanger Forgets He’s a Journalist: But Hamas doesn’t” - by Gal Beckerman
http://www.cjr.org/behind_the_news/steven_erlanger_forgets_hes_a.php 

Beckerman finished the analysis with:

“...it will be impossible from now on to read an article with a Gaza dateline without wondering whether Erlanger, too, is scared of the Hamas goons and what facts this is causing him to leave out of his stories.”

As a rule I don’t provide sites like the following, but ...

The “face of terrorism” against which the fence has been erected, resulting in the dramatic drop in carnage by suicide bombers.
http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/

Israel wants a Greater Israel?!
http://www.terrorismawareness.org/jimmy-carters-war/

stevenlmeyer,

I am now taking your advice - although it is very hard - and ignoring Keith’s unhealthy obsession with Israel.

Stevenmeyer

Israel isn’t an empire nor is it evil. It is a country that is behaving in an evil manner by occupying it’s neighbours.

I already have contributed to olo on this topic:

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5358

As for hijacking a discussion:

1. The discussion was about opinions on Iranian Nuclear Development. In a discussion about the development of Iranian nuclear weapons it is legitimate to look at the reasons for the Iranians taking that course of action. Israel being nuclear armed is the main reason Iran is seeking parity.

2. The author of the article made the following statement

‘'A nuclear Iran's first effect will be on the region, risking triggering a dangerous race for the bomb all around the area.'’

I responded to the illogic in that opinion. To highlight the inconsistencies in the article I then gave my own opinion and attempted to draw a parallel between the two nuclear and aspiring nuclear nations in the region.

3. From there Paul started his ranting and personal abuse. In my 54 years I’ve found people with an obsession usually leads them to make all sorts of outlandish statements and personal attacks. You are also right about people with obsessions and a read of all posts clearly show it was Paul who attempted to switch from stating opinions into a discussion about his obsession defending poor little Israel.

So when you alluded to me hijacking a discussion I think you should have considered the statements of the pro-Israeli propagandists as well. But it is ok I’ve broad shoulders and I have experienced previously on many occasions such one-eyed attitudes from you types in the pro-Israeli brigade.

Danielle

Please show me the occasion where I’d ‘shot the messenger’…that is, other than where I’d first suffered personal abuse…which btw you didn’t seem to be able to recognise nor criticise.

Danielle

It's a pity the Palestinians can't ignore Israels unhealthy obsession with occupation, military adventurism, land stealing, terrorism and the deceiptful propaganda of it's mouthpieces.

You've just condemned the New York Times for false reporting. They are the most reputable news organisation in the western world. Tell me who makes up the members of 'The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting'.

And Danielle why don't you heed your own advice about shooting messengers. :-)

To get back to the topic at hand.

I see the following dangers in nuclear armed Iran:

--Terrorist organisations are able to get their hands on Iranian nukes. They accomplish this by suborning members of the Iranian security services using the deadliest combination of them all, ideology and money. I regard this as BY FAR the biggest danger of a nuclear Iran.

--The Iranian leadership decides to speed up the coming of the hidden Imam or the day of judgment as recorded in Bukhari 2926. I think this unlikely but we cannot rule it out. The Iranian leadership are religious nuts with little credibility among the mass of Iranians. WHO KNOWS WHAT THEY MIGHT DO IF THEY FELT POWER SLIPPING AWAY INSIDE IRAN?

--Iranian nukes would most likely spark a nuclear arms race between Iran and the Sunni powers – especially Saudi Arabia. The Saudis could probably rely on getting help with the technology from Pakistan.

Where a Muslim Middle-East nuclear arms race would end is any body's guess.

Saudi Arabia and Egypt seem to be waiting to see whether the US will stop Iranian nukes. If they fail to do so, the Saudis especially will conclude that America's ability to protect them is waning and then all bets are off.

Note also just how weird is Ahmadinejad:

"In November, the country was startled by a video showing Mr Ahmadinejad telling a cleric that he had felt the hand of God entrancing world leaders as he delivered a speech to the UN General Assembly last September.

"When an aircraft crashed in Teheran last month, killing 108 people, Mr Ahmadinejad promised an investigation. But he also thanked the dead, saying: "What is important is that they have shown the way to martyrdom which we must follow."

See:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/01/14/wiran14.xml

(Spare me invidious comparisons with Bush's religiosity. Compared to Ahmadinejad Bush & Co are Unitarians.)

Anyone got any REALISTIC suggestions for dealing with the dangers posed by IRAN'S nukes?

Keith,

Mate you have handed out your fair share of personal abuse.

The Palestinian gov’t has still not met the demands of the Quartet. ” the US, UN, Russia and the EU - has demanded that the PA recognize Israel, renounce violence and abide by previously signed peace agreements.”

You say in your article that “In the Middle East land is the crucial issue … the largest single cause of Arab discontent.” But the real sticking point in all the peace negotiations is the Palestinian ‘right of return’. Israelis rightly consider this demand as an attempt to destroy the Jewish nation by stealth. A spokesman of the organization in the Gaza Strip, Fauzi Barhum, said that "Hamas has decided to show a political horizon, but our position is clear. All the land of Palestine [from the sea to the river] belongs to the Palestinians and Israel is the enemy. However, our political horizon offers a hudna for 15-20 years, in return for the establishment of a Palestinian state in the 1967 borders, the return of the refugees and the release of the prisoners." What happens after 15-20 years? More terrorism.

“Barak offered Arafat an eventual 91% of the West Bank, and all of the Gaza Strip, with Palestinian control over Eastern Jerusalem as the capital of the new Palestinian state; in addition, all refugees could apply for compensation of property from an international fund to which Israel would contribute along with other countries. But before any gradual Israeli withdrawal, all Palestinian terrorist infrastructure must be dismantled. Arafat, however, refused..”

So what are the Iranians legitimate reasons for seeking nuclear weapons? Do they have a real fear of being attacked by Israel or do they want to attack or intimidate Israel themselves?I don’t recall Israel ever attacking Iran. So what does a non-nuclear Iran have to fear from Israel?

The argument that Iran should have nukes because Israel has them is logically flawed. By this logic that means we should allow Mugabe to have nukes because the west has them? Why not the Burmese Junta as well?

Paul,

Your Israel obsession seems to be as profound as Keith's.

Newsflash.

Iran's nukes are only peripherally about Israel.

I strongly doubt that Iran developed nukes because of Israel.

Fact is Iran lives in a dangerous part of the world. It's fighting a low level civil war on its border with Pakistan. The rebels are supported by nuclear armed Pakistan, Iran's traditional rival for influence in the region.

Iran used to support the anti-Talaban forces in Afghanistan. Recall that the Taleban was supported by Pakistan.

On its Western border Iran used to face Iraq whose mad dictator was definitely trying to get nukes. If you had Saddam as a neighbour you'd also want nukes.

In some of its provinces – notably those with most of the oil and gas reserves – Iran is fighting another conflict with Sunni rebels supported by Saudi Arabia. Iran returns the complement by funding Shia dissidents in the Saudi oil producing areas.
plays out.

For all its oil wealth Iran's per capita GDP is only about one third that of Israel on a PPP basis. On an exchange rate basis its about 12% of Israel's.

The BIG problem in the M-E and North Africa is under-development. They're basically fly-over countries. Businessmen from Europe fly over the Arab countries in order to invest in Asia. Countries like Egypt, Algeria and Morocco are situated right next door to the the EU, one of the richest markets in the world. They have abundant supplies of labour. Yet on the whole they've been less successful in attracting EU investment than Vietnam.

In fact the Arab countries on a per capita basis have been less successful in attracting investment than Israel. THAT is their real problem. Not Israel.

The various countries in the region are far more afraid of each other than Israel.

The world does not revolve around Israel.

Even the Middle-East does not revolve around Israel.

Get a life guys. Throw away your tunnel-vision spectacles and try and see the total picture.