I’m sorry Keith. I thought we were providing details of innocent lives lost during the current conflict. Or did you have some other reason for telling me the story of the Palestinian children? It certainly isn’t the first time I’ve heard the story.

I know innocent Palestinians are paying with their lives in this conflict. So are innocent Israelis. The difference is the Israelis are not deliberately targeting innocents. The Islamist ONLY target innocents.

Keith says “Lebabnon, Twice.” Well that’s it. I’ve clearly lost the debate and all you had to do was provide two words.

Seriously, remember the PLO? Remember where they based their military operations against Israel.
Remember the kidnapped soldiers? Kidnapped by Hezbollah guerrillas based in Lebanon. Part of the same group which is currently assassinating Lebanese MP’s one at a time. Hezbollah fire rockets and mortars at Israel over the border from Lebanon on a regular basis, or do you think that the Israelis just make that up?

Israel has EVERY reason to believe that Iran wants to wipe it off the face of the planet. Have you heard the Israelis suggest that they intend to destroy Iran? The only likelihood of Iran being attacked by Israel is to prevent Iran getting nuclear weapons. Israel has a LEGITEMATE concern that Iran intends to use them to attack Israel.

You said “ It would be better to respond to the questions I actually ask ..yada yada .. when my opinions don’t fit your propaganda”

This is exactly my point. These are all your opinions and you are not prepared to defend them. So if you aren’t interested in debating your ideas this becomes a narrow exchange of personal prejudice. If you provide some evidence for why you think any of the things you’ve posted I’d be happy to reply to them.

So let’s just agree that all of your posts are personal opinion and you aren’t prepared to try and support any of them with ANY evidence.

BTW loved your hypothetical on the US ACADEMIC SLAMS IRAN. Hilarious. It was a joke right?

The same parochial counterproductive justifications from Paul.L
Your argument is highly un-proportional to the sitiation on the ground and it seems to me your drifting around in the stratosphere of what simply the powerful define as fair and reasonable.
General Haim Barlev, Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) was quoted as saying to Ma'ariv in April, 1972: "We were not threatened with genocide, and we had never thought of such a possibility."
So Israel’s actions are based on what? Terrorism?
Ultimately if we are to condemn terrorism and demand that it be fought and contained, those parties who are able to submit positive solutions to the problems that breed terrorism are those who should be assigned the task. I think the solution to terrorism lies in the role of changing the policies and proposing just solutions to the problems of occupation, colonization, forced immigration and imperialism.

I wholeheartedly decry the acts of terrorism by what’s unproductive, and which should be condemned with even more severity, are the attempts exerted by the powerful whom link terrorism with a peoples right to self determination, or those who equate terrorism with mass armed struggle to which people are resorted to against imperialism.

If you want to talk about kidnapped soldiers talk about the thousands detained by Israel without access to trial, if you want to talk about killing innocent civilians talk about the 200,000 (largely avoidable) under-5 infants killed following the occupation (UNHCR and UNICEF data), children to young to even know they are Palestinian and yet are killed for exactly that reason. That in itself is a litmus test of the kind of bigotry that’s predominant in this debate.

For a comprehensive examination regarding Iran and nuclear capability, those interested should download - it’s free - the following from The Washington Institute for Near East Policy - Insight and Analysis on U.S. Middle East Policy

Policy Focus #72
Deterring the Ayatollahs: Complications in Applying Cold War Strategy to Iran
Patrick Clawson and Michael Eisenstadt (Eds.)
Format: PDF, 46 Pages
Published: July 2007

Free Download
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC04.php?CID=280


stevenlmeyer,

Among many issues surrounding this complex situation, this document examines those very valid questions you raise regarding Iran providing nuclear weapons to terrorists:

“Command-and-Control Challenges of an Iranian Nuclear Force “by Gregory Giles.

... also, the added component of the religious tenets of the regime:

“Apocalyptic Visions and Iran’s Security Policy” by Mehdi Khalaji

Brief overview (abstract):

“In this Policy Focus -- the first paper in The Washington Institute series "Agenda: Iran" -- editors Patrick Clawson and Michael Eisenstadt have assembled a distinguished group of experts to pose questions about the use of deterrence in countering the Iranian nuclear problem.

The paper takes a multidisciplinary and multifaceted approach to this problem, with chapters discussing the strategic and ideological mindset of the Iranian regime, the balance of interests between Washington and Tehran, the prospects for cooperation from Europe, the Iranian military's ability to safeguard a potential nuclear arsenal, the regime's calculus concerning domestic pressures, and numerous other key issues related to both the Iranian nuclear dilemma and deterrence in general.

Without exhaustive contingency planning and a concerted push for diplomatic solutions, the editors argue, the United States risks making miscalculations that could have far-reaching consequences.

Contributions by Lewis Dunn, Gregory Giles,Mehdi Khalaji, Jeffrey Lewis, Keith Payne, Karim Sadjadpour, and Bruno Tertrais”

cont...

stevenlmeyer,

Aljazeera (FRIDAY, OCTOBER 28, 2005 - 6:49 MECCA TIME, 3:49 GMT ) reported Ahmadinejad’s address at a cconference entitled “The World without Zion” held in Tehran:

"’As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map,’ said Ahmadinejad, referring to Iran's revolutionary leader Ayat Allah Khomeini.”

Given that this was a translation from Farsi, to Arabic, to idiomatic English, undoubtedly something was lost in translation. The actual speech is here:
http://www.president.ir/fa/

Iranian defenders of Ahmadinejad, state that it is impossible to remove a country from the map.

Apparently, the literal Farsi translation was: “wiping Israel away.” This may, of course, be a Farsi idiom for something quite nice ... but didn’t translate well ...

Keith,

As Paul.L has asked, please provide source and date when making a statement. Without verification these cannot be taken as “fact,” thus, fail any benchmark for debate ... At best these can be considered conspiracy theories, and/or urban myth.

Don’t take the media at face value. Freelancers will tell you that there is no such thing as freedom of the press; before writing a newspaper piece, they first find out the editorial policies and write accordingly. Photographers can be unethical - doctoring their work - as Reuters found out.

I feel you are reading the wrong texts about Israel. Are you drawing on the military and political policy “Großdeutsches Reich”?

Regarding issues you raise, go to my dated posts on forum link:
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=6282

International law, Jordan and Israel.
Wednesday, 5 September 2007 1.33:26 AM and of 1:35:37 AM

The Security Council’s Resolutions 242 and 424 and meanings thereof; the definition of the Green Line; Israel’s fences: Israel’s June 2004 Supreme Court decision; legal procedures and practice; expected outcomes.
Monday, 10 Setpember 2007 8:23:54 PM and 8:26:31 PM

Palestinian terrorist rocket attacks since Israel's disengagement from Gaza mid-August 2005; their stated aims on their website PAL .
Wednesday, 12 September 2007 2:31:47 PM and 2:34:51 PM

Paul.L. contributes a great deal of information.

Finally, Keith, please ...please .... don’t shoot the messengers.

Paul the question I sked was in relation to rockets from the territories. You cloud things by trying to broaden the issue into all deaths. You see we were talking about rocket attacks and you justifying the response to them. I'm saying the response is far greater than the initial attacks and the statistics show that. You see there have been less than 10 Israeli citizens killed by rockets over the last ten years yet Israel has killed hundreds of innocent kids during their 'measures' to stop the rockets. Like all things in this conflict again their is a huge imbalance. And again the greater harm occurs to innocent Palestinians.

Danielle that story was from the NYTimes ... a noted defender of the Israeli regime.

Here's the link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/26/world/middleeast/26gaza.html?

There are many such balanced stories in their archives.

Paul you know you are gaining a reputation for abusing those who hold opinions that are formed rationally by assessing all points of view and who reach conclusions that don't fit the propaganda you spout.

You keep on that way and very soon you will be seen for what you really are...a simpleton di-khead.

Danielle, Paul

De Pauw wrote about the dangers of Iran getting nukes. His article was only PERIPHERALLY about Israel. Yet somehow Israel seems to have become the centre of this thread.

Keith,

If you feel so strongly about the "evil Israeli empire" why not submit an article to OLO? Why hijack a discussion about Iranian nukes and turn it into a forum about Israel?

Danielle, Paul again.

Why do you take the bait?

One thing I have learned in my 62 years is this. Be wary of debating someone with an obsession. If you let them they will make their obsession the centre of any discussion.