Keith, Shadow Minister,

My guess is that if Israel does go down she'll take the whole of the Middle-East oil infrastructure with her. That's not only the oil fields themselves but ports, storage facilities, pumping stations, the lot.

If she uses "dirty" nukes it might be years before the oil fields can be reclaimed.

Even best case scenario it could be a year or two before M-E oil production recovers. Probably longer.

About a quarter of the world's oil supply could vanish in a radio-active cloud.

Be like me. Become a cyclist. I go almost everywhere on my bicycle and hardly notice the price of petrol.

March 2: Ten people were killed and over 50 were injured in a suicide bombing at 7 pm on Saturday evening near a yeshiva in Beit Yisrael in the center of Jerusalem where people had gathered for a bar-mitzva celebration. The terrorist detonated the bomb next to a group of women waiting with their baby carriages for their husbands to leave the nearby synagogue. Six children were among the victims. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade took responsibility for the attack.

June 17: A shooting attack near the Kibbutz Eyal junction of the Trans-Israel Highway killed a 7-year-old girl and wounded three members of her family, including her 3-year-old sister. The Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility.

March 27: Twenty-two people were killed and 140 injured - 20 seriously - in a suicide bombing at the Park Hotel in the coastal city of Netanya, in the midst of the Passover holiday seder with 250 guests. Hamas claimed responsibility.

June 18: Nineteen people were killed and more than 70 were injured, in a suicide bombing on a bus just outside of Jerusalem. The bus, which was completely destroyed, was traveling from Gilo to Jerusalem and had many students on board. In addition to the bus, at least two other vehicles were severely damaged in the attack. Hamas claimed responsibility.

November 21: Eleven people were killed and 47 injured when a Palestinian suicide bomber exploded on a bus filled with passengers, including schoolchildren, in the Kiryat Menahem neighborhood in Jerusalem. The bus was traveling toward the center of the city during the morning rush hour. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

January 5: Twenty two people were killed and about 120 wounded in a double suicide bombing near the old Central Bus Station in Tel Aviv. The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Islamic Jihad and Hamas all claimed responsibility for the attacks.

These are five examples among HUNDREDS.

If you had half a brain you would know that the difference between the Israelis and the terrorists is that the terrorists kill innocent men, women and children DELIBERATELY. They don’t bother looking for military targets

Unfortunately, Ahmadinejad’s political ambitions are tied up with religious zealotry, which create an entirely different ball-game. He sees himself as the vassal to Mahdi’s coming which will be heralded with cataclysmic events.

We in the West have seen only too well what religious zealots can do.

Ahmadinejad’s belief is so sincere that he has government communiques and petitions dropped into a well in Qum, where the 7 year old Mahdi has been waiting for over 1100 years.

In a speech at the UN general assembly, Ahmadinejad implored the Mahdi to come and save the world - ( a reading of the entire speech is quite something!).

Ahmadinejad claimed that during his twenty minute or so speech:

“a powerful light enveloped him and all participants were held transfixed, unable to move their eyes.”

As an observer remarked:

“His (Ahmadinejad) main task is to prepare the world so to hasten the Mahdi's coming. If this preparation requires much destruction and bloodshed, so be it”

Ahmadinejad believes all infidels will be destroyed, whilst the faithful will be safe from death - providing a perfect and pure world for Mahdi’s return.

The Palestinian Authority's mufti issued this Fatwa in June this year

"No Permission to Emigrate from Palestine"

"There has been much talk in Palestine about emigration, especially among the young people, due to the difficult security and economic situation. This is being done in search of a better life abroad. Many are continuing to rush to the gates of the embassies and consulates of the Western nations with requests for visas in order to reside permanently in those countries.

"We hereby declare that emigration from the blessed lands is not permitted according to religious law. The people living in these areas must remain in their homes and must not leave them to conquerors. Those who abide by this ruling will perform an honorable deed and will support the Aksa Mosque."

This mass emigration is due to terror and killings by Palestinian against Palestinian. Tens of thousands have left or are trying to emigrate.

Kaled Abu Toameh a Middle Eastern journalist, drawing on a survey, conducted by the Center for Opinion Polls and Survey Studies at An-Najah University in Nablus reported that 92% of respondents feel insecure because of the growing lawlessness in the PA-run areas.

Palestinian sources report, as many as 80,000 people have departed the territories since the Palestinian War began in September 2000.

The PA Foreign Ministry stated 10,000 Palestinians have filed requests, and been approved, to emigrate from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip since the beginning of 2007 ... and:

"At least 45,000 emigration applications are being reviewed by different countries." The majority being the US, EU and Canada

Palestinians have also moved to Israel because they would rather live in a democracy than a theocratic mobocracy.
(Larry Derfner, “Jerusalem Undivided” U.S.News & World Report, June 3, 2007).

Businesses are leaving

More than 20 factories have moved out of Gaza in recent months. Mohammed al-Kidwa, governor of Gaza City confirms that 35 factory owners applied to relocate.

And nary a word in our media ... or any other “concerned” party. Why ... ?

The Palestinians themselves have managed to achieve what the Israel never did.

I'm not sure why this thread got sidetracked into discussing Israel. Some people seem to have an "Israel obsession."

To get back to the topic, the dangers of nukes in the hands of countries like Iran and Pakistan are obvious. Not the least of these dangers is the fact that these countries may simply not be able to keep their nukes out of the hands of terrorists.

I want to emphasise that point. I doubt even Ahmadinejad would hand nukes over to terrorists. But I question whether the Iranian state is capable of keeping its nukes safe.

What we do about this is another matter and is certainly a legitimate target for debate. The two extremes are:

--Live with a nuclear Iran / Pakistan and hope for the best.

OR

--Take preemptive action.

Both course of action have their dangers. Hopefully some sort of middle ground will be found.

Israel only enters into the debate because some fear Israel could be a target for Iranian nukes. The exact form of words Ahmadinejad used is open to some debate – he most likely said he would like to wipe Israel from the pages of time. However the FACT is that Ahmadinejad made a statement in a CONTEXT that any objective observer would regard as as threat to wipe out Israel. Only someone whose judgment is warped by an "Israel obsession" could deny that.

The ISSUE in THIS CASE is NOT Israel. It is the possession of nukes by countries like Iran and Pakistan. I suggest we ignore the comments of the "Israel obsessed" and focus on what can be done to obviate the threat.

‘You haven't provided evidence for your claim of Israeli military adventurism.’

I did, but I needn’t... your statements provide enough evidence.

When I suggest Iran could attack Israeli Nuclear facilities you say

‘I would say you are definitely a military adventurist.’

It must be if Israel suggests or urges an attack on Iranian Nuclear facilities, Israel is a ‘military adventurist’?

But to reinforce my view: Lebanon…twice.

What was my question that prompted this response? Please quote the question verbatum.

‘March 2: Ten people were killed and over 50 were injured in a suicide bombing at 7 pm on Saturday evening near a yeshiva in Beit Yisrael in the center of Jerusalem .... The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade took responsibility for the attack.

June 17: A shooting attack near the Kibbutz Eyal junction of the Trans-Israel Highway killed a 7-year-old girl and wounded three members of her family, including her 3-year-old sister. The Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility.

March 27: Twenty-two people were killed and 140 injured - 20 seriously - in a suicide bombing at the Park Hotel in the coastal city of Netanya, in the midst of the Passover holiday seder with 250 guests. Hamas claimed responsibility.

June 18: Nineteen people were killed and more than 70 were injured, in a suicide bombing on a bus just outside of Jerusalem. … Hamas claimed responsibility.

November 21: Eleven people were killed and 47 injured when a Palestinian suicide bomber exploded on a bus filled with passengers, including schoolchildren, in the Kiryat Menahem neighborhood in Jerusalem. … Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

January 5: Twenty two people were killed and about 120 wounded in a double suicide bombing near the old Central Bus Station in Tel Aviv. The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Islamic Jihad and Hamas all claimed responsibility for the attacks.

These are five examples among HUNDREDS.

If you had half a brain …’.

It would be better to respond to the questions I actually ask rather than become angrily erratic and continue sinking to personal abuse when my opinions don’t fit your propaganda… again … sigh.