dane

I continually harange Liberal party members and elected representatives with my views. Do you? Sometimes they will listen if there is enough pressure for particular points of view. I'm not currently a member of the Liberal Party but when I was it wasn't 'the broad church' it once was and we 'wets' didn't get much of a look in.
However in relation to mid east matters both major parties are under enormous pressure from vested interests and the only way any party will deviate from it's current policies on Palestine and the Palestinians is if there is a great movement or even interest across the electorate.

Fear not the US will not attack Iran nor will it support an Israeli attack on Iran. The stakes are too high for that would risk far too many American lives in America. Such action will result in an increased support for and acts of terror on the US mainland and it's missions around the world. It would also destroy much of the recent acknowledged advances in Iraq. The significance of the latter is that there would be an immediate and general uprising across the Arab world and Iraq would be it'a immediate focus, instability in hitherto relatively stable and west friendly Arab states would occur and world oil prices would soar to impossible levels so that the world economy would collapse.

That was expected with the US intervention in Iraq but it didn't occur because Saddam was such a blustering fake, which the Arab world soon realised. Iran and it's leadership are not the same kettle of fish they are much more widely accepted and respected. An attack by anyone on Iran would be a disaster for the Western Liberal Democracies, and we all realise that, even George Bush.

Israeli leaders have been quite consistant about Greater Israel and the destruction of Palestine and Palestinians.

Thanks for your support.

ps Rudd has the exact same view of Israel and Palestine as Bob 'weepie' Hawke.

Keith,

I you'd bother to read my posts you would note that I have addressed your claims paragraph by paragraph. You still haven't attempted to back up any of your claims with any evidence. It all just statement of opinion.

If you really are a sensitive little petal, don't dish it out in the first place. Your most recent post to Dane is a perfect example. You claim that Israels desire to keep all of Palestine is well known.Yet you provide no evidence for this fact.

Of course if you go to an Israeli settler website you might see stuff like that, but the settlers don't make policy in Israel and they don't have much support either.

You contradict yourself all the time. You claim that the Wall is a land grab as it is the future boundary of Israel. Yet this means that 95% of Palestine is outside the new Israel.

So rather than cataloging perceived slights why don't you try and debate the issues. Starting with the two I brought up.

Paul

Your Questions: NB All Answered.

Are you MAD? Answered.
‘How do you do anything ‘covertly and openly’?’ Answered
‘Show me any evidence of Israel’s military adventurism.’ Answered
‘I would like to know what you would do if extremists lobbed missiles into your home day after day.’ Answered
‘Are you seriously suggesting Iran isn’t trying to produce nuclear weapons?’ Answered
‘Who's giving you your opinions?’ Answered
‘You're arguing an unstable dictatorship should have nuclear parity with Israel. And why?’ Answered
‘No points for guessing what Ahmedinejhad would make of you and your western lifestyle?’ Answered
’So do you think Hamas should get nuclear weapons too?’ NO
‘How about Hezbollah?’ NO

My unanswered questions:

‘Given that Israel already has a bomb …and Iran is merely the second starter off the blocks?’
‘So who is the greater threat to peace in the region? A nuclear power ….or an aspiring nuclear power?’
‘Why do you need to twist things? ( regarding historical events)’
‘Why do you need to make such disgraceful (Racist) generalisations?’
‘Why do you ignore the fact Israel suppresses every Palestinian?’
’Why do you ignore and attempt to justify Israel's aggressiveness … by pointing to the actions of a few Palestinians?’
’Why do you lie about the comparison between Camp David and Arab League offer?’
‘Btw are those Israeli pow's returned yet?’
‘Where did you get the idea I think Iran isn't intent on nuclear weapons?’
‘Are you deliberately misreading my posts?’
’… Israel and Iran are treated equally. And you don't believe that should happen...do you?’
’And tell me what would your reaction be if I suggested Iran should negate Israel's nuclear advantage…, air strikes targeting Israel's nuclear development?’
‘Why do you think the rest of the world's thinking and positioning should be equated with Israeli thinking …? (In regard to Palestine)’
‘Now you show me my whining?’
‘Just where are you getting your information on Iran?’
‘Now tell me why anyone with any sense would bother to read our posts or take either of us or our points of view seriously?’

What was that about debating issues raised? :-)

Paul,

It’s the sort of thing that is often printed in the West’s respected liberal democratic media. Not great headlines nor front page, but not propaganda either. We see it as honest reporting that gives both sides and allows us to make up our own mind.
It’s a perfect example of how we liberal democrats in the west are allowed to reach a thoughtful balanced position.

‘For Gaza’s Young at Play, Fields Can Be Deadly

GAZA — The three Abu Ghazala fathers were in mourning, …watching … the fields of watermelon and eggplant in which their children had died.
The children — Yehiya, 12, Mahmoud, 9, and Sara, 9 — were tending goats and playing tag on Aug. 29 when an Israeli shell or rocket blew them apart. …
The Israeli Army said the children were playing near a launcher used to send Qassam rockets into Israel …
The Israelis, who contend they must do everything they can to stop rockets from falling on innocent Israelis, say they did not realize that the targets in this case were children, except when it was too late. The Abu Ghazalas do not defend the rocket fire from their fields.
Since June 1, 18 Palestinians from Gaza under the age of 19 have been killed by Israeli fire of some kind: 7 under the age of 15, not counting a year-old baby who died waiting at a checkpoint, and 11 between the ages of 15 and 18, according to figures kept by the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group.
Capt. Noa Meir, …although the children had been killed by ground fire, she offered an interview with an Israeli fighter pilot, … “The moment we see that there is any doubt that all the people in the vicinity are armed, our policy is to cancel the mission,” .’

I wonder about the death of that year-old baby at that checkpoint.

Now what was that you said about blowing up children on a bus?

For further balance tell me how many Israeli children have been killed by rockets fired from Gaza in the last 10 years?

The moral and personal issues aside, the reason Israel sought nuclear weapons was to prevent the type of all out assault that occurred from all sides in 1967 and 1973.

I have no doubt that if there was an invasion and Israel was losing, it would use or threaten to use its nukes.

If it was attacked with nukes it would suffer enourmous damage and would probably respond in its typical fashion of massive escalation. Guessing that it has 100 - 200 warheads, this would cause unimaginable loss of life.

There is no scenario in which Iran could use the nukes where the outcome would be better for them than not using them. That they are getting them can only be as a perceived deterrent to invasion. They look at Iraq - no nukes - invaded. North Korea - nukes - no invasion.

The real issue is whether the material developed by Iran would find its way to groups with no known home address who could strike with no fear of massive retaliation. I can only guess as to their intentions, but the thought is chilling.

Keith,

You clearly have no idea about the difference between a debate and an exchange of views. Virtually all of your answers are statements of opinion. You’ve not provided any evidence for why you believe these opinions are valid.

Q ‘Why do you need to twist things?’
A: I don’t, show me otherwise.

Q ‘Why do you need to make (Racist) generalisations?’
A: I don’t, show me otherwise.

Q ‘Why do you ignore the fact Israel suppresses every Palestinian?’
A: Because its not true

Q ’Why do you ignore and attempt to justify Israel's aggressiveness
A: Because they are not acts of individuals, they are STATE acts

Q ’Why do you lie about the comparison between Camp David and Arab League offer?
A; I don’t, show me otherwise.

Q ‘Btw are those Israeli pow's returned yet?’
A: NO Are you boasting?

Q ‘Where did you get the idea I think Iran isn't intent on nuclear weapons?’
A: So do you support Iran’s weapons program?

Q ‘Are you deliberately misreading my posts?’
A: NO

Q’… Israel and Iran are treated equally. And you don't believe that should happen...do you?’
A: NO

Q ’And tell me what would your reaction be if I suggested Iran should negate Israel's nuclear advantage
A: I would say you are definitely a military adventurist

Q ‘Why do you think the rest of the world's thinking and positioning should be equated with Israeli thinking
A; What makes you think I do

Q ‘Now you show me my whining?’
A: The first half dozen questions I answered above are whining, they’re not real debating points

Q ‘Just where are you getting your information on Iran?’
A: Mostly from Iranian opposition and exile groups

Q :‘Now tell me why anyone with any sense would bother to read our posts
A: Because I always try and back up my opinions with some EVIDENCE to give real debate, rather than just statements of opinion.

BTW i notice you AGAIN dodged my most recent request to provide EVIDENCE for your 'IDEAS'. You haven't provided evidence for your claim of Israeli military adventurism.