It's sad that the Christian lobby has a conservative agenda rather than that of a God who identifies with the poor which is what Christianity is really about, not a preoccupation with sex and Prosperity Theology. Jesus talked about public morality, not private morality. It was poor old Paul who was crippled with guilt over being gay and ended up hating himself, women and gays, whatever other good things he might have said about love (agape).

John Howard refers to Wilberforce but he spent over 20 years fighting the corporate interests which Howard represents today who put profit above everything else - the Golden Calf that Moses ran into to in the desert. He should look at the speeches made against Wilberforce by the members for Liverpool and Bristol, and see how the planters lobbied against him.

Fortunately Peter Costello's brother raises those real issues and the Quakers are still lobbying as they did in the days of Wilberforce before they could vote so had to go through the Anglicans and the Clapham Sect as they were later called.

CJ.... good try and oh so predictable :)

If I worried about things I say coming back in your hand to bite me in the bum I'd say nothing.

There is a difference between "Fundamental Christianity" and "Radical Islam" the Obsession thread should have shown that to you, but as Jesus said "They have eyes..but do not see, hear but do not perceive."

KatieO sorted you blokes out..but still you don't "perceive"... fair enough. Some people are born blind...others willfully so. (and I'm sure you can find a way of whacking me with that little tidbit also :)

But it boils down to simple things...kinda like 1+1=2 "We will rule the world" "Islam will dominate, you will be destroyed" uttered by that nutter in London.... when was the last time you heard me say "Christianity will DOMINATE -you(atheists) will all be DESTROYED" and the meaning of the Muslim nutter was 'in this world' .. if Christians speak of judgement or destruction they always mean it in the NEXT world, even Fred Phelps probably. Fred just dangles people over the fires of Hell in words to try to threaten them into heaven. I don't think he actually assaults people..?
Even HERE
http://www.godhatesfags.com/writings/20060704_letter-to-earthdwellers.pdf
he is saying "God" will punish.....

If you can find him calling for 'killing' please let me know. He says "Proud gays are worthy of death" but I can't see him saying "Kill them"..

From his 'parting words'

"there is nothing to look forward to but a certain fearful watching for God’s judgment"

Contrast that with "We will RULE UK, we will RULE the White House" etc

Runner
"It is true that we do our best to live at peace with all men. Unfortunately due to sin in the world this is not always possible"

We are only responsible for our own actions - if we live peacefully, we die peacefully. It is possible to be a peaceful person. why did Jesus refuse the sword - refuse to join ANY coalitions of the killing? Jesus gave his life, without retaliation, turning the other cheek, to the very end - " Iam the LIfe (example), The Truth and The Way." The reason he says this is because he knows people will distort his words - but they can't distort his actions.

The most remarkable thing about the early Christians is that they transcended race/tribalism - all people were equal.

Today we have prominant "Christians" who persecute people for no reason and wage aggressive wars - resulting in the deaths of more than 1,000,000 people, 4,000,000 more displaced and a further 8,000,000 suffering from malnutrition - the majority of whom are children. People like Howard for example, are much more like the Herod we hear about in the Gospels than they are the Christ. By their deeds know them - not heir names. anybody can be a lapel pin wearing only "Christian" - much more difficult to really LIVE like one - and you don't get further away from living like one than by taking part in the destrucion of other people's lives.

My suggestion runner: improve your comprehension skills - the story of Christ is not that difficult to understand - as a whole story - not just a passage or two taken out of context.

The world would learn a great deal about the nature and REAL causes of conflict between people (WHO really stirs up trouble in communities) from studying the society of the Gospels as a microcosom. Let me give you a hint, the 'priests' of that society don't come out of it too well. Not one little bit!

Now if Christianity had a politic that would be an issue worthy of debate. However not all Christians share the same politic.
Judging from the 'god haters' if Christianity was a Marxist doctrine they'd be all over it like flies on a roo turd and everyone would have to be Christian.
Kant took morals to be a dictate of pure reason, in its practical aspect. Not following the moral law was seen to be self-defeating and thus contrary to reason. Later thinkers took the imperative to originate in conscience, as the divine voice speaking through the human spirit. The dictates of conscience are simply right and often resist further justification. Looked at another way, the experience of conscience is the basic experience of encountering the right. For good Christians it's the light. Same same.
Governments should be doing the 'right thing'. If governments where motivated to do the 'right thing' political lobbies would be non starters. That governments can be manipulated is the reason lobbies exist. The Christian lobby is one of many. Not THE lobby. Or the worse by half. Though they do make a lovely target for the continual abuse by the 'God haters' and their fears of having any moral considerations for ewe and me.

"and their fears of having any moral considerations for ewe and me."

Aqva, I have no moral considerations for you and your ewe . Whatever
gets you through the night I say :)

Well, maybe not you personally, Boaz.

>>when was the last time you heard me say "Christianity will DOMINATE -you(atheists) will all be DESTROYED"

How about this gem from columnist Anne Coulter"

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war"

http://www.nationalreview.com/coulter/coulter.shtml

Not much doubt about her views, eh Boaz?

But of course, I forgot. She cannot be a Christian, because Christians - by definition - do not say such things. Or if they do, they cannot possibly mean them. But is they do mean them, well... they can't be Christians, so there.

When will the clue stick finally hit, Boaz?

You are irredeemably one-eyed. As far as you are concerned, only Muslims offer violence in defence of their religious beliefs, despite the absolutely overwhelming evidence that criminal acts have been perpetrated in the name of Christianity since it first appeared.

And not only historically. Separating children from their parents in the name of Christianity has been a practice until, I should remind you, quite recently. So, for all the sympathy we have for katieO's asylum seeker, please stop holding her up as if this answers all the questions.

And please aqvarivs, spare us the hypotheticals.

>>if Christianity was a Marxist doctrine they'd be all over it like flies on a roo turd<<

As my old grannie used to say, if wishes were horses, then beggars would ride. I'm not at all sure what she meant, but I think it had something to do with careless use of the conditional "if".

If Christianity were a Marxist doctrine, aqvarivs, then either Jesus or Karl completely screwed up somewhere along the line.