Thanks Boaz,

For your honest and realistic post. I don't believe many strict Orthodox Jews are Zionists. My understanding is G-D took Jerusalem from the Jews because of their impiety and moral bankruptcy (at the time). They were only to regain Jerusalem once they had redeemed themselves. Zionism is actually secular, and is grounded in European nationalism, not Jewish religion. Most of the Settlers are American or Russian, and dislike the State of Israel. I have read many Jewish commentators who are disgusted with the Occupation, and see it as a threat to Jewish people everywhere. Let alone the whole world.

The Jewish claim to modern Israel (Palestine) is incredibly weak. When you consider the Egyptian, Babylonian and Roman expulsions, the Jewish people have lived in Palestine for a very short time. The Old Testament, and the events in the Gospels, gives their claim increased legitimacy in the West. Imagine you are Chinese or Indian, in other words almost half of the world, and the quaint stories in a book form very poor justifications for stealing another people's homes. The Palestinian people have been living there for at least 1900 years, and maybe descendent from Phoenician and other local Sematic tribes long before that. Western power gives Israel legitimacy, nothing else.

And Paul.l, why you think your propaganda and doublespeak do the Zionist cause any favours, I don't know. Rather than waste my time disputing every one of your points, I'll kill one and ask others to check the rest. Israel attacked Egypt and Syria in a pre-emptive strike in 1967, and they sunk the USS Liberty to cover up their crime. And are you really going to argue that Israel intends to freely give up Samaria and Judea, biblical names they use for what we call the West Bank? Now a question for you, how do you internalise the murder, rape, dispossession and genocide of millions of people? You either approve of this, or you have a great shrink.

Speaking of “claims of Israel on Palestine”, Earthrise, should, perhaps, clear understand that these claims are in any case much more substantial than those of the Muslims/Arabs on the same territories - and on significant areas Earth-wide Anglo-sphere accustomed to own, that is even the farms in Africa, Southern part of and Zimbabwe, for instance.

You still need to catch up on your historical learning, Paull.

It was Henry Kissinger as US Foreign Policy adviser who brought Cambodia into the Vietnam conflict in order to prevent Soviet battle supplies getting to the Viet Cong. The problem was that Kissinger had not contemplated the Pol Pot regime taking over the weak Cambodian government.

Certainly America has suffered from poor contemplation of outcomes.

There were many Brits with enough commonsense to be against the Americans allowing the Jewish remnants of the Nazi Holocaust returning to Israel the Promised Land were Palestinian Jews had already lived in comparative friendship with Arabs.

It is also interesting that while doing a course during the Cold War on International Relations we were told by an American tutor how Henry Kissinger already aware of future danger from the Arabs had made sure that shipments of arms, including planes and tanks had been there waiting for the future Israelis when they arrived.

Kissinger was also active during both short wars even negotiating with the Arabs, said to be telling them that his role was to make peace. And to give him his due, he made sure his Jewish brethren were well-armed just in case - and no doubt it was from Kissinger’s advice that the Israelis were so early illegally acquiring nuclear armaments.

But it was just in case that we were studying power balance principles to prevent more war, as certainly is the type of strategy that should be taught in our universities.

The problem in the world right now is not a balance of power between two combatants but one big autocratic nation- America- holding full power.

It is interesting that we were warned of this a long time ago, and even as the former Soviet leader Gorbachev warned that unipolar power was too selfish - and as Immanuel kant warned so long ago after he became disgusted with Napoleon calling himself Emperor after promising a campaign of liberty equality and fraternity.

From now on, said Kant, the only answer against major wars is a multipolar Federation of Nations.

Regards BB

Earthrise

As I’ve said previously, there is no point in calling my posts propaganda and doublespeak. Its juvenile. I could just as easily say you are captive to a lunatic far left conspiracy-theory which is simplistic, pseudo-intellectual and outdated.

You said “Israel attacked Egypt and Syria in a pre-emptive strike in 1967, and they sunk the USS Liberty to cover up their crime.”

Yes and no. Egypt and Syria had massed their armies (including 1000 tanks) on Israel’s borders and the Egyptians had blockaded the straits of Tiran. Whilst Israel’s attack on the Egyptian air force was a pre emptive strike, to pretend that the Six Day War was one of Israeli aggression is to totally ignore the facts. Consult any international law and you will find that the blockading of a port is considered casus belli.

The attack on the USS liberty occurred 3 days after the war had begun so what exactly were the Israeli Air Force covering up? Israel’s pre-emption had already been reported.

I don’t need to argue that Israel will give up the left bank. They already offered it to Arafat at Camp David in 2000 in return for peace along with the Gaza strip. Arafat knocked it back in the vain hope that one day all of Palestine will be Arab.

Genocide of millions? What planet do you live on?

Let me ask you how you live with Muslim terrorists who ONLY target INNOCENT men, women and children?

Its fairly typical of the small minds on OLO not to want to engage those who disagree with them. If what you really want is to preach to the choir be my guest.

I am hoping someone from the Left can give me a rational and valid response that challenges my beliefs, because I came from the left. I have always voted labour. I understand that most people on the left are well meaning, its just that they seem to so regularly resort to conspiracy style arguments which are self justified and seem to have no connection to the real world

Paul.L
your facts and figures are largely false, what sources exactly did you get that information from? no doubt regurgitated Zionist propaganda.
These accounts are based on the work of historians Willian L. Cleveland "A History of Modern Middle East", and Patrick Seale founded on 'historical record'...
Arab league forces representing the five countries had gathered twenty thousand men, with their heaviest armor consisting of twenty two light tanks and ten ancient spitfires, whereas the Jews had fifty two thousand active fighting troops and thirty thousand strong home guard "along with Irgun a 'special operations' or terrorist group".
The Egyptian army was largely bogged down in a civil war in Yemen, and was only able to send two divisions into Sinai. Jordan did attack, but this came only after so called "pre-emptive" Israeli action. On the Syrian border, it was Israel that invaded the de-militarised zone and "issued a series of threats ... to occupy Damascus and overthrow the Syrian regime"

The entire pretext of occupying the remaining 22 percent of Palestine based on an act of self defense is rubbish, the Arab league was in no position to invade Israel.

Did you actually study what was being proposed at camp david Paul? there was no '90 per cent' offer, Barak promised a military withdrawal from only 12 per cent of the Occupied territories. He also made it clear that Israel had no intention of giving back any part of greater Jerusalem, which covers some of the best Palestinian land and is considered the administrative and cultural heart of Palestine. Most of the Illegal settlements, which controlled 42 percent of the West Bank and Gaza, would stay, leaving a fragmented Palestine or 15 percent of pre-Israel Palestine. Have you seen a modern map of Palestine? Its not a country, its a joke!

Sorry folks I stand to be corrected, it was the 1948 war from which I sourced the information on the Arab leagues military..