Nice deflection guys,

But you can't escape my point. Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people by the UN definition. They periodically destroy Palestinian cultural and academic centres (most recently during Intifada II), while their Separation Wall, fixed checkpoints and roving roadblocks make cultural, economic and academic life extremely difficult. Destroying crops and homes is another method of making life for the Palestinians so unbearable, they will 'self-transfer' (eg. become refugees), leaving the West Bank in Israel's greedy hands. This gives you some idea of the fine line Israel draws, they'd love to pile all these pesky Palestinians into cattle trucks and send them off to Jordan. But they are doing all they can without tipping international opinion finally against them. Once this margin starts to narrow further, watch out.

Everything about the Occupation is illegal. They are in breach of multiple UN resolutions, and countless General Assembly motions, demanding they withdraw back to the pre-67 borders. The Separation Wall is illegal in international law. The Occupation breaches Article three and four of the Geneva Conventions every day, on the duty of the Occupier to the Occupied. It is very difficult to run a legal occupation, especially for forty years. In a world with real global law, the Occupation would not have lasted ten minutes. This is why the US, Israel (and Australia) constantly undermines the UN. Their aims cannot be achieved though international law, so they must be a law unto themselves.

Time is running out though, and the wheel is coming around.

Earthrise,

Don’t let a little thing like the FACTS get in the way of a great story. We can’t escape your point? You use emotion where you have no evidence.

You claim Israelis are committing genocide by destroying Palestinian culture. We provide some evidence that you are clearly wrong about this and you call it a deflection.

I give you actual figures on violent deaths and you start talking about economics.

The Israelis offered the Palestinians 94% of the west bank, all of the Gaza strip plus a capital in east Jerusalem at Camp David in 2000. It was conditional on Arafat dismantling the terror organizations, something he was unwilling to do. The Arab League doesn’t speak for the Palestinians, by the way.

All you need do is look at the charters of Hamas and Hezbollah to see that they are not interested in a two state solution. They refuse the possibility of giving up ANY of Palestine.

The separation wall is almost entirely built upon the original green line. And it leaves 100,000 Jews on the wrong side of the line. So either the wall is a land grab, that leaves out 95% of Arab Palestine. Or it is temporary and will be pulled down when the violence ends. Which is it?

Lets have a look at your use of hyperbole in your last two posts. Crusader, unbearable,ill-begotten gain, stolen, devastating, murder and subjugation, undefendable Occupation, stolen property, brutalizing, live by the sword, genocide, Separation Wall, 'self-transfer', Israel's greedy hands, Occupation is illegal, pesky Palestinians, cattle trucks, law unto themselves, Time is running out.

Maybe you could make your point without all the highly emotional terms, but I sincerely doubt it.

You talk about South Africa and apartheid but everyone knows that the only realistic solution is two states. Once Palestinians stop their campaign of terror for good, I and many others would throw our full support behind their claim to all of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. I do not support the settlers and, despite your claims, neither do large section of the Israeli public.

I've had my fun,

But this is getting boring. I rarely bother to 'debate' Zionists, because like religious fanatics, they cannot use logic and reason or risk exposing their corrupt worldview. While they are defending the indefensible, they cannot rely on legal or moral argument, it works against them. All they have is misinformation and spin, propaganda and doublespeak. The truth is not on their side.

It is easy to see. I can say Hamas is a threat to the Palestinian cause, I can say Fatah is an even bigger threat (Quislings that they are), and that Islamic extremists are damaging international efforts to find a just solution. But you will never hear Zionist say the Occupation is wrong, illegal, immoral and a disgusting blight on our world. You won't hear Zionists say that all the West Bank must be given back to the pre-67 line. You won't hear Zionists say that the Occupation is genocide by UN definitions, that Israel is in breach of Article 3 and 4 of the Geneva Convention and that Israel is living in defiance of many UN resolutions.

I made this very clear from the outset, I am a supporter of Israel behind the 67 border. Once she retreats behind this legal border, I change sides overnight. A legal Israel will rally behind her the weight of the world against Muslim extremists. But while Israel continues to hold onto her ill-begotten gains, it only serves to muddy the argument and divide international, and Muslim, moderate opinion. A handful of criminals is not a threat, but a mass movement in opposition to Israel's occupation provides unintentional cover for extremists, and serves to recruit more to their cause. If you want to catch these fish, you need to drain the pond. The pond is Israel's Occupation, remove that and these criminals are exposed for all to see. Israel's Occupation, with US protection, only gives terrorists increased legitimacy in the eyes of the world.

Prove them wrong, I dare you, leave the Occupied Territories. The longer you stay, the more terrorists you create.

Keep up your logical point of view, Earthrise. It fits in with the fact that the Age of Reason and the Age of Enlightenment was to be still buggered up by the fairy story of the Promised Land - and with humanities' inborn greed Reason and Enlightenment were still stuffed up with the advent of colonialism as part of competition and the natural greed and growth of the more powerful nations.

Part of this of course, has been our attempt to capture the hearts and minds of the Middle East Arabs with the message of the American Way, still pushed so much by Georgy Boy Dubya with God Talk and missile diplomacy.

As many Britishers still believe, as well as many Israelis themselves, for the good of Middle East peace, the Jews would have been better allowed to be inflitrated into both the United States and what was still called the British Commonwealth of Nations.

Virtually in Israel where the Arabs will still be demanding their 1500 year old rights for many years to come, the highly talented Jews would be far better to have been granted posterity among what other more wandering Jews have helped to manufacture - Western democracy.

However, without crippling Islamic nations such as Iran, and causing a billion more Islamic enemies throughout the world, a reborn Jewish Israel can never be a peaceful possibility.

So true earthrise,
Its all too easy to lap up the realpolitik influenced claptrap perpetuated by biased google articles, but through a moral humanist prism things just don't add up. thanks for the transparency

“For those who live by the sword will surely die on it” (Posted by Earthrise, Monday, 3 September 2007 1:11:03 AM) – perhaps, it is a reference to toddlers in a kindergarden and pupils at local Sderot school being “kassammed” once again at the moment new school day started.

And not so much one could hear from local Australian media of it at all.