Continuing my post from yesterday

Celivia,

My observation in the Presbyterian Church is that our young people marry young and don’t waste too much time starting a family. I think the same applies in other branches of the Christian Church, and according to many reports the same is true of Muslims. If the non religious and atheists are so keen on abortion rights, doesn’t that raise questions about their long term survival several generations down the track? But maybe the non religious and atheists are so focussed on themselves, they don’t give a thought to future generations……?

The point I readily concede is that for traditional views to prevail, it appears you need religion.

Bushbasher

You object to my descriptor, “unborn child” – I suggest you get hold of the National Geographic book, “In the Womb” and see if you can still object to my use of “unborn child”.

Col Rouge

You speak of women having the right to exercise sovereignty over their own bodies and yet fail to understand that “the problem” has only arisen because, actually, a man and a woman did something together, and the man did so without any commitment to the woman so that that living growing thing you may call a foetus and I an unborn child indeed becomes “the problem”, for it was not the anticipated outcome of mutual love between the two, and therein I suggest lies the heart of the matter as far as this discussion is concerned.

Bye for now

David, I'm not sure how many previous abortion threads that you
have followed on OLO, but rest assured that its been discussed at
length, you raise no points previously not raised.

The debate has also progressed well past pictures in National
Geographic. Fact is if it hasn't got a a functioning human
brain, then its not a person, so not yet an unborn child.
You are confusing say week 5-10 with say week 30, a big
difference! Sorry, but at week 5-10, its not yet an unborn
child, so emotive rhetoric won't make your point.

Given that the world population has gone from 1.5 billion
to 6.5 billion in the last 100 years and is still increasing
at 80 million a year, I hardly think that Australia is
about to be short of people in the future. Fact is that
if the lot of us died, the rest of the world's increase
in population would replace us in just 90 days.

But then as we see with Pete's baby bonus, a few bucks
and they can't keep up with all those babies at the
maternity hospitals.

The secular movement certainly has nothing to fear, when
it comes to numbers. It is true that the better educated
have less children. What is also true is that with advances
like the internet, people are becoming far better informed.
Better information also leads to more rational thought,
some of that brainwashing of children by the religious
wears off for most, once they can inform themselves.
Given that only about 8-9% of people bother to go to
churches at all, no matter how fast the religious breed,
we will re educate them once they are out of your clutches :)

You might well be bogged down in believing in tradition.
To me it matters not a hoot, for I have long ago realised
and accepted that the most permanent thing in life is
change. Ignore it at your peril

apis, you can calm down now and stop being such a rabid nitwit. Whatever Kinsey's faults I'm pretty sure that he did not advocate child molestation. And whatever conclusions that he may have made, however erroneous, there was one irrefutable observation and contribution that he has made. He has shown that there are are a very wide range of sexual practices and attitudes to sex out there. And subsequent surveys on sex have shown that whatever your attitude or view on what sex is, is unlikely to be shared by a great majority of people. Thus it is irrelevant what you think sex should be, and its bearing on abortion.

I see we are back to fine descriptors of what constitutes life in order to justify killing. "Abortion is fine cuz we're kill'n nothing."

Mr Gerrit
I’m feeling for your daughter that the abortion has caused her to be infertile. She was very unfortunate; one wouldn’t expect an abortion to go wrong when it’s done by a doctor in a clinic or hospital; childbirth generally carries more risk than abortion.

David Palmer
“…marry young and don’t waste too much time starting a family.”
I am sure that a young couple wouldn't ‘waste time’ by being together; it can be very enjoyable time for a couple to spend a few years together before changing nappies. Some couples remain childless- are they wasting their lives?

“…non religious and atheists… don’t give a thought to future generations……?”
As Yabby pointed out, people are getting more educated; it will become harder to fool them with incredible stories from the Bible. Gods, throughout history, have always been disposable; it’s just a matter of time that this one will be disposed of as well. Science is constantly contradicting the Bible; even after 2000+ years, nobody has actually come up with any evidence that the God of Abraham actually exists.


“…for traditional views to prevail, it appears you need religion.”
What traditional views from the past can you think of that you are happy to have lost?
It’s all in the zeitgeist- you can’t help that the zeitgeist changes. I’m sure that even fundamental Christians wouldn’t want to go back to the traditional view that stoning homosexuals to death was the right thing to do. That cutting off your own hand as Jesus advised is the right thing to do for people who are tempted to steal. To beat up your ‘servants’ if they didn’t work hard enough would also not do very well as a traditional view today.
Once, these were the traditional views. Now, they are gone, despite what scripture says. Good riddance!
Seems to me we don't need religion at all.

Why should religion have the monopoly on morals while it’s obvious that many of the morals of the Bible are outdated and deliberately ignored by Christians as God or Jesus were obviously wrong about these 'values'.

Consider this;
.
Hansard 2-3-1898 Constitution Convention Debates
Mr. HIGGINS.-
I do not see, speaking in ordinary language, how the insertion of such words could possibly lead to the interpretation that this is necessarily a Christian country and not otherwise, because the words "relying upon the blessing of Almighty God" could be subscribed to not only by Roman Catholics and Protestants, but also by Jews, Gentiles, and even by Mahomedans. The words are most universal, and are not necessarily applicable only to Christians.
.
Let everyone have their religion for themselves and consider that regardless of religion or non-religion we are all human beings.
Those who cannot manage their own lives and tired of it should not use this as an excuse to justify abortions to take place.
.

I view that when a couple engage in sex they are aware a pregnancy can eventuate from this and both must be held accountable. Not just that the woman can pursue a man for maintenance but has all the rights to terminate the baby. It was a joint efford! A woman who engage in sex by this accept no longer to be the boss over her own body if she conceives, as she accepted the consequences for the child and its rights. Neither can the man get out of it!
.
It is not an issue of the mother or fathers right but that of the (unborn) baby's rights!