Palmer is so desperate to show that abortion is immoral that he resorts to teaming with ancient Greeks (all men?). Hmmmm I could zoom back in time as well and team with all the ancient women who thought that abortion was necessary and not immoral. And guess what, despite abortions there are 6 billion people now. Abortion has always been around and always will be as long as there are unwanted pregnancies.

Palmer pretends to care about women by warning that there’s risks associated with abortion. He forgets that there’s risks associalted with pregnancies and giving birth as well. He also forgets that backyard abortions are even riskier.

I’d rather see someone staple a condom to the Bill than a warning about risk. I’m sure women are well informed of risk by their doctor prior to the abortion.

Deddy,
your post is a fresh breath, thank you.

Col,
in a previous abortion discussion I disagreed with you when you were not in favour of statistics because I thought if there are reliable facts and figures, then at least the anti-choice brigade can’t constantly overestimate abortion rates.
Also keeping track of the numbers can show us how we compare with other countries, and how well we are doing in reducing the rates.

For example, I find it interesting to know that in the US, abortion numbers were steadily decreasing until Bush came in; ever since Bush the number of abortions have been on the increase.
Now I can agree with your perspective also- I don’t really care about abortion rates and it is indeed a private matter. I can see positives for both sides and am sitting on the fence on this one.
What do others think?

Yvonne
Funnyyyy…I felt like shouting also but you beat me to it! Your D&C point is a very valid one, thanks.

LOL, Yabby, now I want statistics of cover-ups also.

Cornflower,
I can’t get the link to work, will try again tomorrow. I suspect that these figures are either guestimates though, because no proper data have been kept.

David Palmer might wonder why most Presbyterians joined the Uniting Church leaving a small rump of conservatives to battle on as the Presbyterian Church. Newsflash David, perhaps its because people respond poorly to the emotional blackmail that your article recommends.

When women are able to control their fertility they have fewer unwanted children which leads to a reduction in the juvenile delinquency rates 18 years later. Monty Python questioned whether "Every sperm was sacred" and I have no problem with a high abortion rate. I do have concerns over children being born into environments without the opportunity to reach their full potential due to parental poverty, parental disinterest or parental incompetence.

If David Palmer wants to increase the fertility rate then he should promote policies that
* enable people to look to the future in confidence
* enable people to buy their own housing or rent accommodation for a reasonable portion of their incomes,
* ensure that workers have control over their hours of work,
* guarantee minimum wages,
* ensure that workers don't have 1 hour commutes from home to work, ensure adequate child care
* ensure children and mothers have access to good quality health care regardless of income
* ensure that good quality education is accessible.

Demographers have pointed out that in times of Depression, like the 1930s, the Australian birth rate falls.

There is a number of posters demanding that others make sure all is perfect in the world before they have children. I'm assuming this must be the major reason behind those having abortions since the attitude seems prevalent with the pro abortion crowd. I don't really care what your personal opinion is on abortion, whether you have one or not. My sympathy is with the Doctor's having to perform some 100,000 each year. I'm only ever so happy that my parents didn't have such an attitude wanting everything laid out for them before they had their family. I remember having to go with out but, I also remember the joy of contributing, helping my family through the bare times. The yin and yang of life. The utopian world never arrives and while waiting, not willing to act before perfection, life will have passed you by

We are all glad our 'parents' didn't put off having children till every thing was perfect, but to assume that 'parents' is a useful term in describing the relationships of the women seeking abortions is a flawed assumption. It may be the model that is still held to be 'normal', but that doesn't mean that it automatically reflects the reality.

aqvarivs you are right that utopia will always be elusive, that in itself is precisely the reason why issues of financial security for women are important

aqvarivs said "There is a number of posters demanding that others make sure all is perfect in the world before they have children."

No, women are often faced with a stark choice of have an abortion or rear this child in poverty. In Australia we are not talking about risking life and limb searching through minefields to collect dung beetles, grasshoppers and frogs for your daily protein. No we are talking about insufficient food in the house for breakfast for the kids, or missing other meals, kids going to school in greying hand me down uniforms. School children are very cruel towards those with disability, those with fragile egos, those who wear tattered clothes and those who smell. Research shows that poverty in Australia relates strongly to poor health outcomes, higher rates of mental illness, lower school retention rates, higher reliance on help from outside agencies, lower income as an adult. Poverty is also strongly related to solo parenting

Some people are resilient and will overcome any adversity thrown at them but why should people who know they are not resilient be forced to struggle to rear children into a poorer childhood than they themselves enjoyed. Australia has returned to a Malthusian society where parents can no longer assume that their children will have a more comfortable life because we have draconian IR laws and we are outstripping our food, energy and water supply.

When you remember that 80% of Australian households are 1 month from being plunged into poverty you have a clearer idea why women chose not to proceed with pregnancy.

Well billie, As one of the 80% poor my wife and I manage to raise three children, feed, clothe, nurture and love with out wearing the latest in fashion, or having all the latest hip gadgets. We aren't trendy and cool perhaps but, what we do have we take care of and don't treat everything as disposable. I drive a 13 year old second hand vehicle, maintain it myself, and she runs like a top. My wife and I buy the best value clothes for the cheapest prices we can get. You wont find us on the cover of the latest trend mag but, I've never caught anyone sneering at our dress yet either. Not that I'd probably notice. And my youngest daughter wears clothes (hand-me-downs) from her older sister as she grows into them. I haven't seen too much evidence of emotional and physical scaring. We manage three home cooked meals a day. Would never manage by eating out on junk food or restaurants. Then again my wife and I live life as each day arrives. Teach our children values and self-discipline that will see them through life. Manage to pay our bills in a timely fashion, aren't in debt, and put away a couple of dollars for a rainy day. We do all this on poor. There was never any question of waiting till we had everything before we began to live.
I'm not saying everyone should have children but, I don't think abortion is anything to be pro. I'm more in favour of self-responsibility and education.
I saw a homeless man the other day pushing around two carts of junk. Not recyclables, just junk. I suppose he thought he had a full life. There is a number of single and married people just the same. Their junk is just more expensive. Of course if they had children they would have to relate to them, care for them, nurture them, and that is probably the real issue with the "type" of people having abortions in an affluent Australia.