Shockadelic wrote: "There was only *one* Einstein (unique DNA).
Only *one* Michelangelo (unique DNA).
What if the world had missed their contributions?"

We can also ask what about the possibility of missing out on the contributions of famous women who were free to carry on with their contribution to society after only being enabled to do so by having the option to have an unplanned pregnancy terminated.

Your argument about DNA is irrelevant and has been discussed earlier in this thread because regardless of whether the embryo is an independent organism, or even whether it has rights, it's rights will never equal or exceed the rights of it's mother to which it's existance is completely dependent. For the anti-abortion brigade to claim that the rights of a woman only equals the rights of an embryo really illustrates where they rank women in society.

You also say "Abortion can kill the mother! Pretty nasty side effect!"
In the last 15 years there have been only 3 deaths caused by abortion in Australia, compared with 83 from 2000 to 2002 alone. Prior to 1971, abortion (then illegal) was the highest cause of maternal death in Australia accounting for 25% of maternal deaths. Prior to 1971, women knew that the risk of dying was high yet they still risked their lives to have an abortion. These women were desperate, not "spoilt brats" as you claim. Women today are no different, they just have a safe option.

And you said "Feminism and the advertising media have trained young women to think only of themselves. Don't think of others or the future of society."

You incorrectly assume that it is mostly young women who are having abortions. While this depends on what age you consider to be young, Medicare stats show that the majority of women who have abortions are over 28 years old. Women in this age group often already have children and just can't cope with more. They have terminations because they ARE thinking about others. The welfare of their existing children.

”Why not allow a penis to ejaculate in your vagina only when you are ready to raise children?”

Because society has not deemed sex to be illegal. People enjoy sex, often without
wanting children at the time. Why forgo all those pleasurable experiences?

” If you're a spoilt brat.”

You are implying that women the world over are spoilt brats. There are around
42 million abortions a year, IIRC. Lots of those in the third world. Those women
all have their own reasons, they are certainly not all spoilt brats. Knitting needles
have been around for a long time. The rich of course, can just fly to another
country, use good medical services. So its poor women who suffer most from
banning abortion.


”By this argument, *you* don't really exist as an individual.
You are just other people's genes: your parents, grandparents, etc”.

Your genes are made up of your ancestors genes, bar the odd mutation.
Genes are one part of what makes up an individual. As you interact with
your environment, those experiences, memories are all part of what makes
you. Without your mind, you would not be you. Your mind is, what your
brain does.

“Every culture thoughout history has believed in the spiritual dimension.”

Every culture has invented some kind of gods of the gaps and for good reasons.
As people evolved to think more, they also became more anxious about things
they did not understand. Lightning, thunder, you name it. Perceived certainty
assists brain chemistry in achieving homeostasis or balance. Whether its actually
true or not, does not even matter. Anxious individuals are not happy individuals.
So religion etc, is required by some to make them feel better. Fair enough, for
those who need it.

”Science isn't infallible.”

Nobody said it was. In Science, all knowledge is tentative. However Science is
clearly a more informed process of understanding the world, then claims by
people like popes etc, that they are infallible.

” The metaphysical and psychological cannot be reduced to "facts" and "evidence".”

So its no more then an opinion

My paragraph above should have read;
"In the last 15 years there have been only 3 deaths caused by abortion in Australia, compared with 83 DEATHS ASSOCIATED WITH CHILDBIRTH in the three years from 2000 to 2002 alone."

Shockadelic,
>>Don't you mean: "That makes perfect sense, …." <<
No, otherwise I would have said so. It’s pointless to discuss the immigrant issue at this stage because regardless of our view of immigrants, these views won’t affect decisions to be made about abortion. I do believe, based on evidence from other countries, that when a supportive and safe social network is in place, abortion rates will fall. We can’t just talk about two social issues like immigrants and foster care without equally discussing many other social issues that could possibly influence women to choose giving birth over abortion. See what I mean’? It'll be an endless discussion. Perhaps others want to discuss this, but I won’t during this debate.

BTW, I have the impression that you haven’t read this entire debate. If you choose not to read what has been discussed, then I choose not to reply to things that you address which have been debated unless you have something new to add.

>>Donors? Preventing destruction of life isn't the same as preventing *natural death*.<<
I know. That’s why I never said it was the same. I merely asked why, if anti-abortionists are so concerned about saving lives, do they try to force others to save lives that THEY want to save without offering themselves to save lives of people who want to be saved.

What keeps anti-abortionists from donating bone-marrow, a kidney, a piece of liver or lung?
Is it because human beings are only worthy of saving pre-birth?
It’s so easy, isn’t it, to tell others what to do. Put your organs where your mouth is.

Yabby is right, whether it’s new DNA or not is not the issue. I think ‘personhood’ is the issue. DNA alone does not make a person.

>>"Risk of death in childbirth is 1 in 5000" In modern hospitals?<< In Australia. Crumpethead’s figures are correct. A woman, at a modern Sydney hospital, who gave birth on the same day as I did, died shortly after giving birth.

QUOTE
http://au.news.yahoo.com/070913/2/14f7k.html?f=mv

Friday September 14, 06:26 AM
Doctor sacrifices her life for daughter
A Melbourne GP has refused high-level chemotherapy, ultimately sacrificing her life to save her unborn daughter.
Family and friends farewelled Dr Ellice Hammond, 37, at a funeral service, the same day anti-solarium campaigner Clare Oliver succumbed to melanoma.
Dr Hammond lost her battle with Hodgkin's lymphoma on Sunday, three weeks after daughter Mia Ellice was born nine weeks prematurely at the Monash Medical Centre, where she remains in neonatal intensive care, The Herald Sun said.
Dr Hammond was diagnosed in the 22nd week of pregnancy and refused high-level chemotherapy that could have saved her but might have killed Mia, whose induced birth took place on August 20.
Dr Hammond had three reduced-strength chemotherapy treatments during the pregnancy, but the cancer returned worse than before each time and full-strength treatments following Mia's birth did not save her.
END QUOTE
.
Anyone who argues that an unborn child has no rights/status, etc, would in my view insult Dr Ellice Hammond.
A woman who sacrificed her own life for the sake of her (then) unborn child!
As I have always stated, where it comes to a matter of life or death I accept that in special circumstances a woman may need to have an abortion. As such, I can only admire this women nevertheless having considered the life of her (unborn) child above that of her own.

Crumpethead:
"The embryo will never equal the rights of it's mother to which it's existance is completely dependent."

So Elderly people with Alzheimers have less rights, because their lives are dependent on others?

"Prior to 1971", most girls weren't told a thing about sexuality, pregnancy or contraception.

The "knitting needle" era was one of ignorance and innocence.
Young girls and boys did not discuss sex at home or at school.

The only reason the knitting needles would come out *today* would be pure selfishness, not ignorance or innocence.

"The majority of women who have abortions are over 28 years old"
All the more reason they should be informed enough to know how babies are made and how to prevent it.

"83 deaths associated with childbirth in the three years from 2000 to 2002"
You are more likely to drown, be poisoned, or commit suicide.

So you can die from abortion, you can die from childbirth, you can die from choking on a lolly.
Everybody dies.

Yabby:
"Why forgo all those pleasurable experiences?"
i.e. Me, Me, Me!

You can't have "sex" without ejaculating inside a vagina?
Are you Bill Clinton's publicist?
Have all the sex you like, but there's only *one* way you'll get pregnant.

"The third world"?
We're discussing abortion policy in Australia.
In the third world, abortion's the result of backwards cultural norms about sexuality, and lack of education about reproductive reality.

"Without your mind, you would not be you.
Your mind is what your brain does."

And your brain is your *ancestors genes*.
So "you" don't exist.
You are just a biochemical genetic reaction-factory.
I thought rational materialists already knew this.

"Perceived certainty assists brain chemistry".
Like your perceived certainty in science's subjective data.
Your perceived certainty that religion is hogwash.

Celivia:
"Perhaps others want to discuss this (immigrant issue), but I won't".
Because it contradicts your presumptions about population growth.

"I think 'personhood' is the issue. DNA alone does not make a person."

Do *catatonic amnesiacs* in mental hospitals have rights?
Is there a "person" in there?