Ok aqvarivs, lets work out the odds for condom and contraceptive pill.

Given that the pill has a typical failure rate of 9% and condoms have a failure rate of 15%. When used together, this equates to a failure rate of 1.35% Using the same rough figures as before, this would result in 27,000 women having unplanned pregnancies each year and accoring to Gerrit, would deserve to be sterilised. Although I'm sure that if Mrs Gerrit Schorel-Hlavka fell pregnant with this combined protection it would have been different and he would have made an exception because his wife isn't like those other women who he assumes are being so irresponsible.

While condom use by men who are in new relationships is recommended as a good way for men to take some control of causing unplanned pregnancies and STD's, the majority of couples choose not to use condoms.

I suspect that one reason for many people taking a hostile attitude towards women who seek terminations is because like Shockadelic and Gerrit, they think that nearly all unplanned pregnancies could be stopped by contraceptive use. Well even in an ideal world where all couples used contraception, contracepives do fail and in a population the size of Australia's, unplanned pregnancies occur in very large numbers.

Getting back to David Palmer's original question in his article, "What are our politicians doing to reduce the numbers? [of abortions]". I believe that while more and better sex education would do something to *slightly* reduce the failure rate of contraception and unplanned pregnancies, subsidised relationship counselling would also have some impact. Many abortions would not be neccessary if from the beginning, couples knew where each other stood in relation to future plans to start a family (or not), child raising responsibilities, and contraception. While this is a very un-cool topic to raise over dinner early in a relationship, it would save a lot of grief down the track.

Gerritt, its all very nice if one is living perfectly,as you claim
to be, but I assure you, there is a large imperfect world out there.

Women are plied with grog, women are coerced in all sorts of ways for
a bit of nooky, usually by men, thats the reality. Some people
make mistakes, etc. etc. thats life. Contraception sometimes does
fail, as has been mentioned.

As we have shown that no "children" or "people" are aborted,
something which you have not been able to refute, you have yet
to show why some holier then thou attitude should be applied to
a zygote, embryo or foetus. Nearly all abortions are performed in
the first trimester.

Personally I try and take a more tolerant view of the world and
others then you do. I accept that people are not perfect and
will make mistakes.

A little less dogmatism and a little more tolerance from you, would
be welcome.

The Hitleresque suggestions applied to his time, not to a secular
democracy like Australia.

crumpethead, first the opportunity for failure of the pill and condom use is given at plus or minus 2% when used properly, second you forgot to configure for spermicidal, and both male and female condoms used in conjunction, and the number of days of actual fertility for each given woman considered. Both men and women securely bundled in plastic, swimming in spermicidal and her on the pill and they should never have to face abortion. It's up to you to encourage condom use by both partners and the liberal application of spermicide. There is no excuse other than poor planning. Being human is no excuse. There should never be any skin touching unless both participants are willing to take on the responsibility and obligations of being parents. Otherwise it's garden supply bags over the head and tied at the ankles.

Gerrit, I apologise for asking you an irrelevant question about contraception, I rushed my post and overlooked that you did indeed discuss contraception.

I tend to agree with aqvarivs that with all those different types of contraception, the chance of pregnancy is minimal, but I’m not sure how much contraception costs. Teenagers can’t always come up with that amount of money especially if they can’t tell their parents.
They may rely on condoms-only because they’re cheaper.
That’s why contraception should be free.
And, as Yabby said, people have sex when drunk and forget about contraception. We could say that “they shouldn’t”, but the reality is that “they do” make mistakes. We also “shouldn’t” have car accidents, but we still do, unfortunately.

Crumpethead, the counseling is a good idea.
Also, social networks like easily accessible and affordable child care and flexible work hours all play a role in the willingness or ability for parents to provide for a child.

Gerrit, the fact that people burry their foetus after miscarriage is because they have emotionally connected with it. Mothers who plan to give birth do tend to connect with the foetus, whereas women who opt for abortion usually don’t have feelings towards the foetus. The fact that women feel emotional toward their foetus still doesn’t mean that it’s a person- it just means that the parents have feelings.
Forced sterilization is, as Col suggests, far too much like dictatorship- you can't be serious.
If a woman chooses to give birth to, say, 2 babies in her life, does it really matter to others at what age she becomes a mother? She can have an abortion at 16 and still start a planned family later.

Celivia, you do it so well that I'd like to read an article by you on this or a related topic. It is complicated, and falls back on ourselves as individuals, and the ethical standing we have and the ethical choices we make, plus the laws that act as guidelines for us in making those choices. It is also, as you have just pointed out, often a most emtional business, which complicates things further. I don't think that we will ever get rid of abortions, but we certainly can reduce their number, and everyone who has written on this topic seems to have wanted such an outcome. What we differ on is the best way or ways to do so.

We now seem to have on going excuses being made that a woman can be made drunk, teenagers cannot afford cost of contraception’s, etc.
Translate this in someone using a car but cannot afford to maintain it and drives it unroadworthy and end up in an accident. We simply then are to accept the argument that a teenager hasn’t got enough money to afford keeping it in good condition, and ignore someone might have been as result ended up cripple or killed?
Or are we simply to hold that if one participate in driving then you simply have the responsibilities and must accept the consequences?
If a woman does allow herself to become drunk then that was her own doing (I do not include rape in this).
If we are going to make all kind of excuses then every criminal in prison will have some hard luck story to tell why they should not have been convicted, let alone have been imprisoned.

Aqvarivs bag over the head would be some option if we did leave breathing holes in it!
Anyhow, besides education, contraception (ring/cream/condoms), abstain and whatever else can be applied it can be hardly argued that somehow all so called unwanted pregnancies are the result of unforeseen accidents. An “accident” is where you simply had no ability to prevent it. If I were to bang onto a window and his cracks then it is not an accident, as I could have anticipated, even so I may not have expected it, that the window may crack.
If however I happen to slip on the street and in the process loose my balance that I fall against a window and causes it to crack then it is an “accident” in that my slipping was not intended.
If a person voluntarily engages in sexual-intercourse then they are taking a conscious decision to do so. If either or both involved ignores to take sufficient and appropriate precautions then forget about hard-luck stories. They did it to themselves!
Don't make excuses for those who did it onto themselves!