”So you can die from abortion, you can die from childbirth, you can die from choking on a lolly.
Everybody dies.”

You missed the point. Childbirth is something like 8 times as dangerous as abortion.
Its up to people to decide, when they want to risk their lives, not up to you.

”i.e. Me, Me, Me!”

Do you have the foggiest about basic evolutionary psychology 101? Self interest
is a normal, natural instinct. Even altruism and reciprocal altruism relate back
to self interest. Social species like us, do some things for the benefit of our “tribes”
which in turn benefit us, that does not make us slaves of the state, fulfilling the agenda of others.

” Have all the sex you like, but there's only *one* way you'll get pregnant.”

How people have sex is their business, not my business.

”We're discussing abortion policy in Australia.”

Abortion is a global topic, no reason not to discuss what happens outside
Australia.

”And your brain is your *ancestors genes*.
So "you" don't exist.”

Shocka, time for you to go back to biology 101. This is actually a great book,
which explains things simply, even for people like you.

http://waylifeworks.jbpub.com:80/toc.cfm


”Like your perceived certainty in science's subjective data.
Your perceived certainty that religion is hogwash.”

You forgot what I wrote. All information is tentative. No evidence
of the many religions claims so far. When the 10 commandments appear
on the face of the moon, we will all take note!

” Because it contradicts your presumptions about population growth.”

So what is your real agenda here? More little Anglo Celtic babies
perhaps?

Today I walked into a mental hospital, took out my gun, aimed at a catatonic amnesiac, and blew her head off.

Then I walked next door to the medical unit, took out my gun, aimed at a comatose patient on life support, and blew his head off.

I walked home a free man.
I'm not a murderer.

Those things didn't interact with their environment or have memories.
They were not "persons".
Just live tissue.

I had every right to destroy them.
They were a burden on society.

Oops Shocka, into the slammer you for life, convicted of murder.

They were both people, with human brains. Malfunctioning
human brains perhaps, but still people.

Thats ok Shocka, we'll pass around the plate and send
you some food parcels, plus a book on biology 101 :)

MJA reports that Australia has the sixth highest teenage pregnancy rate and one of the highest teenage abortion rates among OECD (Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development) countries.

Sexually active teenagers also run the risk of acquiring sexually transmitted infections such as Chlamydia trachomatis (CT) infection and gonorrhoea, wrote the authors. Survey results show CT infection rates of up to 28 per cent among certain groups of Australian adolescents.
CT genital infection is the main cause of pelvic inflammatory disease, which can lead to infertility related to disease of the fallopian tubes, chronic pelvic pain and ectopic pregnancy (pregnancy that develops outside the womb, and is not viable).

45% of sexually active Australian high-school students do not use condoms consistently, and 31% use condoms without another form of contraception.

adolescents delay seeking prescription contraception for an average of one year after initiating sexual activity, it is perhaps not surprising that half of adolescent pregnancies occur in the first 6 months of sexual activity.

Approx. 48% of impregnated teens are choosing to have the child.

While I believe it is valid to question the numbers of abortions, I also believe it is equally valid to question the who and why and where abortion is not being chosen and have a look at that reality as part of the whole complex issue of abortion.

I don't want to say pregnant teens ought to be encouraged to have abortions but, when one becomes acquainted with the down side of teenage pregnancy, for both teen and baby, and the long term cost to the system, it should be a strong first among considerations.

It would be hard to determine the standard of in home pre-teen sex education considering the number of children that don't see parental scrutiny for days on end. With out any doubt, schools and churches are away behind the eight ball in this regard.

Yes, Gerrit, I admire that woman as well, but I would have equally respected it if she had chosen to save her own life.

Aqvarivs,
these are really interesting points, worhy of thought and discussion by both sides of the abortion debate. Would you have a link to that info so I can keep it for future use? This info shows how very important it is for schools to equip teens with a thorough sex education. Thank you!

Shockadelic,
>>Because it contradicts your presumptions about population growth.<<
No, my point is that the outcome of a population debate would be irrelevant because even if you are 100% correct about population growth, women should still not be obligated to give up their freedom of choice just to increase the growth of the population. There is no reason, political or religious, that would justify taking away the right of women to choose what to do with their own body.
If you can convince me that such sub-debate about population growth would have a point inside the framework of this debate, then I might change my mind.

Is this population-growth thing the reason why the anti-abortion brigade focuses so much on abortion rather than on IVF?
For every child that is a result of the process of IVF, 20+ remaining embryos are disposed of. Why would labs be allowed to dispose of embryos they don’t want but not women? It’s the same thing, except the container where the embryos were developed is different: test-tube or uterus. Why justify the destruction of 20+ lives in the creation of one and criminalise the destruction of one life through abortion?

Perhaps then, it is more about population growth than it is about killing of embryos?
While embryonic stem-cell research has been criticised also, the every-day routine IVF process is not given much attention while it destroys many embryos. Why?
Perhaps Yabby’s correct when he says “…. real agenda … More little Anglo Celtic babies...?”

If it IS about population growth, then why not allow lesbians to participate in IVF as well- the more the merrier :)

Shockaholic.. your last post, the usual dysfunctional hyperbole.

What you would have done is decide on the future of another separate individual.

This is what you seem to misconstrue

That individual was someone separate to you.

You do not get to make choices for them

They did not share your bodily resources.
They did not place any burden on your body functions.
They were not growing within the confines of your own body.

If they had you might have been reasonably justified in your action.

That is the difference between your murderous action and the right of a woman to secure an abortion.

The pregnant woman’s body is being shared
Her bodily functions are put under stress
The embryo is growing within her.

She does get to make choices which concern the use of her own body.

If you do not understand that simple difference, then you have no right in writing on an adult forum. Back to school for you, a re-sit for the second grade