Hamlet, regarding your sticking point of different kinds of love,
as you say, we cannot ignore our evolutionary past and the notion
that we humans always act rationally, or are able to even do so,
is a flawed one.

Hormones affect behaviour, we evolved to pairbond and if you've
lived with a bunch of hormonally surging teenagers, you'll know
what I mean :)

So yes, people will have sex, even if not in that long lasting,
soulmate type of relationship that you talk of. Convince a 16
year old that she doesent love her first boyfriend and see how
far you get...

The thing is, we have all made mistakes in our lives, done things
that we regret later on, we live and learn. If a teenager lands
up pregnant, I see no good reason why she should be forced to
have a child that she does not want. The most to suffer will be
the child, some mothers actually do take it out on their kids.
Thats why I believe that women should be empowered with choice
and have kids that they love and want, not ones forced on them
by society's rules. RU 486 is one way to achieve that.

Yabby, I would not force any woman to carry to term a child that she did not wish to carry. And yes, even at my advanced state of decay I rememember what it was like being young and in love, having married at 20 to an 18 year old woman, and having that go sour after not too many years.

I would not say that I would make abortion illegal, excepting where the foetus being aborted was reaching maturity approaching viability. I also know of few people who would support the idea that third trimester abortions are a good idea.

Women will always seek terminations, and procedures should be as safe for the woman as possible, using the latest medical technology. What I would ask is that the need for any abortion be reduced by improving contraceptive methods and education, linked with a shift in societal values so that motherhood, and parenthood in general, is supported.

I would not have a clue how to deal with the 'problem' of teenage mothers, some of whom have either received insufficient education re sexuality and contraception, and some chose to get preganant in order to make their lives seem more valuable. Whilst the rate of teen pregancy has lessened, we still have too many children having children.

Maybe the idea of informed consent should also be taught at an earlier age as well. I was recently disturbed to hear that many young male teenagers did not know that sex with a girl under the age of sixteen was actually illegal. Young teenagers have always thought they know everything that was worth knowing, whilst us old fuddy-duddies, or whatever else we want to call ourselves, have been concerned that teenagers will get themselves into trouble.

There is, in law, an age of consent. If this is not going to be enforced, it should be scrapped from the law completely, or the age should be lowered, and then enforced. But can a 13 year old really see the consequences of all their actions in a way that ensures that informed consent can be given?

YABBY, you talk about my priorities. We all know your top priority, which is to trot out your tired old bigotry against the Catholic Church, blaming it for everything under the sun.

The Church doesn't control India, where they are "popping out" kids as you put it , at an increasing rate. Nor does it control Indonesia or Africa. The Pope doesn't control the rainfall in Africa causing drought and crop failure, famine and starvation. Why don't you blame the corrupt tin-pot African dictators like Mugabe who has driven the white farmers off their land, giving it to his cronies who let it lie idle and unproductive. He has also bulldozed poor peolple's homes leaving them helpless and homeless. Other dictators cause civil wars resulting in starving refugees, who don't always get Western food aid because the government grabs it.

And what makes you think you know what size families Africans or anyone else wants? Even some Western women want more than 2 or 3 kids. I knew a family with 21 kids. And they were NOT Catholics either.

If contraception is so successful, why are we getting more abortions than ever before? Surely sexually active adults who want to avoid pregnancy should have more brains than to say "stuff it, we'll take the risk". How stupid and irresponsible is that? Kids shouldn't be doing it at all. Are we raising a generation with no morals and no self discipline, and no responsibility for their actions? If so, what price the future?

So you think I should sell my computer and send the money to Africa! One less opponent for you. It won't happen. At least, I am trying to help two children. Who are you helping? All you are doing is is shooting off your big mouth, and showing everyone how bigoted you are.

Hamlet I agree with most of your last post! The age of consent is a line in the sand that we draw and its open to debate when it should be. The insurance companies claim that its only about 25 when we
become sensible :) Enforcing the age of consent would be near impossible with teenagers. The more you ban something, the more they will try to do it...

Al, no bigotry on my part, I am just well informed. You really need that google bar :) The Vatican spreads its tentacles throughout world politics and power. Inform yourself please. Just one link for you, an interview with a retired director of WHO, how the Vatican
interferes. He worked there for 24 years and spilled the beans when he retired. http://www.population-security.org/29-APP3.html

That link can take you to other links, if you are interested. As they say, you can take a horse to water.. etc. etc.

Regarding my donations, if you are so interested, my donations go
to helping protecting a species called the bonobo. They are near
extinction, with only a few thousand left, versus 6 billion humans.
The growing African population is taking them to extinction, I hope to do my bit to turn that around, if at all possible.

Regarding world birth rates etc, please inform yourself. A copy of the SBS World Guide will give you exact figures for each country.
You can't seriously debate these issues, by just refering to the lady down the street etc. If you keep your computer, thats fine by
me, its the two dying kids that miss out, thats all.

Yabby: Let me quote some of your previous post: "The growing African population is taking them to extinction. I hope to do my bit to turn that around if at all possible". And ....
You can't seriously debate these issues by just refering to the lady down the street etc." "If you keep your computer, it's fine by me, it's the two dying kids that miss out that's all".

Comment 1. You seem deliberately obtuse about "the lady down the street". The point I made was that some people with no religious affiliation think abortion is wrong. This lady stood firm and talked her daughter out of an abortion. It's not only the Catholic Church which opposes abortion, others do too.

Comment 2. You are trying to lay a guilt trip on me about "two dying kids that miss out". This is rich coming from you who prefers to give his money to save an animal, whereas I give mine to try to help two children. Not only that, but you say this animal is threatened by "the growing African population taking them to extinction.." It's hard to ignore the inference that maybe a few dying Africans would be in the best interest of the bonobo. When it comes to the crunch, which are more important, animals or humans?

Hamlet, Yabby:
If I may summarise?

1. Humans have sex because its fun – designed (oh no, please do not go there!) this way to ensure survival of the species.
2. Humans have employed contraception because in the modern world people want to chose the timing for reproduction/family responsibility.
3. There seems a flaw in current effectiveness of sex education as there's plenty of it but there's still a high abortion rate when it should be comparatively low.
4. Teenagers are laws unto themselves

From your discussion, two issues:

First, a more open attitude towards sex is needed, to assist parents and teenagers in discussing the pleasures and the dangers. This should improve awareness in teenagers and could develop into a more responsible attitude – much like drinking. Look what taboos/authoritarian views on drugs have done.

Second, no matter how much we try, society will always have a need for abortion. No contraception will be 100% (except abstinence – but that’s not really contraception, is it?). Therefore, healthy and safe abortions should be available.

I know there is more, but this is a good place for me to start. If there is something I have missed, please feel free to point it out.

Al,
If you’re going to accuse Yabby of bigotry, perhaps you would care to state your affiliation? Catholic perhaps?

However two points you made were right –
“Surely sexually active adults who want to avoid pregnancy should have more brains than to say "stuff it, we'll take the risk". How stupid and irresponsible is that?”
and
“Kids shouldn't be doing it at all.”

Both are right. Nevertheless, both are truisms that will not change – no matter what kind of moral nirvana we hope to live in. Why not look for solutions to minimise harm to society rather than demonise and attempt to control what will not ever be controlled?

As to the importance of humans over animals, well, without the animals and the greater ecosystem, the precious humans are doomed.