Al perhaps you should read Richard Dawkins, he will explain to you how complexity arises from simplicity, via the molecule dna.

As to Fatima, you need to be at least a little skeptical lol. The sun can be seen from half the planet at any one time. If the sun
was bouncing around as claimed, not only Fatima people would have seen it, it would have been observed by half the planet :)

If the God that the Vatican claims is true, he is free to post the
10 commandments on the face of the moon, for all of us to see and
immediately stop any arguments regarding his existance.

Regarding the chuch and social questions. Any humanist and nearly
any enlightend person will agree that we should do things to assist others from suffering concious pain. That is a far cry from trying
to contravene the laws of nature as humans are doing. If we do that, we have to accept responsibility for our actions. If we preserve life with antibiotics, vaccines and everything else we do, we are not letting nature take its course. We then also have to be responsible for the risk of too many humans making life on this planet unsustainable for much of the biodiversity that exists.

Abortion in the first tremester involves no pain to any person, no suffering is involved. It is simply the outcome of two individuals who got horny, despite not actually wanting a child, which is quite human. It is also the acceptance of natural law, that far more potential individuals will be produced then can ever survived.

The big difference is this Al. You think that Gods plan will make it all ok in the end. I don't believe you. I think that we humans have to be responsible for our own actions and the future of this planet.
As you have no substantiated evidence to support your claim, I see not a single reason why I should accept your viewpoint.

"You claim that what the Secular Humanists have done is different from Church lobbying. They have changed the Laws under which we have to live. If we do want to divorce, the rules are now very different thanks to SH and Lionel Murphy. The innocent party has lost all the former advantages and can be left in great hardship."

Al, what is it with you, that you want to own another person? Sorry,
its just not on. Everyone is a free spirit. If somebody loves you,
thats an honour, not a right. You cannot compel people to stay with
you, whether they want to or not. The days of slavery are long gone..

When will you start to respect the rights of other people?

Yabby, You ask "when am I going to respect the rights of people". I ask when are you going to respect the rights of the unborn?

I respect the rights of spouses to expect loyalty to their Marriage vows. But if the marriage breaks down because one has been shacking up with someone else, the innocent party should have the protection of the law in the welfare of the family. Not splitting everything in half, so the guilty party gets as much as the innocent, which Secular Humanists have made happen. Marriage is not "slavery" as you put it, but it is a commitment which should be honoured. in the best sense. Do you really believe it is slavery??

I don't think you can get around that question of Creation by mentioning dna. Certainly there is dna in animals and humans, but not in the rocks and gas of Venus and Saturn for example.

So far as "The Miracle of The Sun" at Fatima is concerned, Yours is the first time I've seen this question asked. The answer is this The background of this event
goes back to May 13, 1917 when a series of visions of the Virgin Mary to three children began. [ I assume you have checked on this.] They continued every month to September, and the children were promised a sign to convince the community that they were telling the truth. So the promise of a miracle at noon on the 13th October was made for the local area, not half the world. Make the Sun behave in this manner restricted to a certain area? Seems impossible, but nothing is impossble to God.

Print the Ten Comandments on the Moon?? They would still be hard to read, and would spoil a beautiful feature woudn't it? Would it make people any more inclined to take notice of them anyway? God gave us Free Will to obey or disobey.

I ran out of space. Yabby, you say we should accept responsibility for our actions. I agree. The "two individuals who got horny" should accept responsibility for their horniness. Agreed? But they are running away from their responsibility by making the tiny innocent human life pay the price for their horniness by sending him/her to oblivion.

I respect the rights of people Al, not a few dividing cells. They are simply the product of biology, no brain, no nervous system,
just dividing cells. The rest is emotional rhetoric. I accept the laws of nature, not all potential humans can survive. The biggest
cause of abortion is in fact mother nature herself. I accept that people should have children when they want them, for no other reason.

Marriage is not a business deal, nor should it be. People can have intentions at one time, but over time, people can change and grow. Before marriage, people can feign about who they really are,
others are gullible and believe it. Does that mean a lifelong forced living with somebody who we have come to detest? I think not.

No judge can establish who is guilty and who isn't, as many things are at play that the judge can't be aware of. If you marry somebody, that does not imply ownership! It implies respect and commitment, but things can change over time, people can change. That does not mean we should be miserable for the rest of our lives, caught in a situation by some stupid law.

We know of only one sun Al. If it bounced around, everyone would have seen it. Otherwise it was not the sun. On the other hand, mass delusion caused by religion is pretty common. Think of Jims Jones followers who all killed themselves in the name of religion.

If you are interested what goes on in peoples minds when they have visions, go to the Radio National website "All in the Mind". Read the transcript on epilepsy, then you will know where prophets and visions come from.

Horniness is a natural and normal phenomena Al, to be enjoyed by all.
That does not imply wanting a child at all. Simply mother natures way of ensuring the survival of the species. That does not mean destruction of the planet in the process, by too many humans trying to live unsustainably

Yabby, I think you are too dismisive of the fetus as "dividing cells". Ultrasounds show that they are obviously human from a very early stage, with beating heart and brain structure etc. Read DrMac's post and the info on human fetus on the Net.

If a man leaves his wife and kids to shack up with another woman, he doesn't deserve to get half the proceeds. Judges may be stupid sometimes, but surely thay can figure that out. However, thanks to Senator Murphy and his mates', No Fault Divorce, being the innocent party doesn't mean a thing when it comes to the bottom line.

Your dismissal of Fatima as a "delusion" won't hold up when you consider that as well as the earth being saturated by heavy rain before the event, it and the people's clothes were dry affterwards. A delusion can't dry saturated ground and clothes.

I am intrigued by your comment that "If we preserve life with antibiotics, vaccines and everything else we do, we are not letting Nature take its course." You say elsewhere that you "accept the laws of Nature". This prompts me to ask you:

1. Are you suggesting that we should cease using these things and let people die of disease and infection, because of your fear of over-population?

2. If you accept the laws of Nature, surely that means letting the fetus develop as Nature intends and eventually be born? It seems to me that your statements on accepting the laws of Nature and support for abortion can't be reconciled.