Hamlet I have Jared Diamond's book, so know what you are refering
to. I think you miss the point however. Humans have sex because
its pleasurable first and foremost. It evolved to be pleasurable,
so that people would have it more often and have more kids as
a result, not as a prime purpose. Just Nature's way of achieving
her objectives, even we arn't aware of them.

Much of what happens in our minds is at the subconcious level.
There are good evolutionary reasons why we are hugely attracted
to one person or another. We can think one thing, feel another and
just follow our feelings in the end. It happens all the time.

The thing is, you are saying that we should just let nature take
its course. If we get horny and have kids, so be it, have them.
In that case you have to apply the same to other aspects of
our lives. Antibiotics, vaccines etc, are all human inventions
which change natures course. If we bred constantly and saved
everyone, what about other species for instance? What is your
reason for only accepting some products to change natures course
and not others?

Actually Yabby, I am not saying that we should let nature take its course.

What I am saying is that we should be aware of our evolutionary heritage, and why we do the things we do, rather than just assuming that we make fully conscious decisions all the time.

Sometimes this recognition, and asking the right questions of ourselves, will help us navigate through life without as many difficulties.

I raise this out of recognition that so much contraception fails. I wonder how much of this failure is due to subconscious choice to risk pregnancy at times when abstinence would be more advisable?

Or perhaps the dependence on one form of contraception when two combined forms may be much more efficient? For instance, use use of both condoms and diaphram, rather than just using one of them. Of course both stop the 'spontenaity' of sex.

I am also sure that a lot of couples have just 'risked it' out of hope that conception will not take place, not realising that the time that women are most inclined to sex is the time of most likelihood for conception to take place.

Of course there is a place in our world for the developments of medical science to be used. I am not one of those who believes that when Genesis says that the women will give birth in pain that the use of anaethesia should be banned in childbirth.

We should ust recognise that we have an evolved in certain ways, and that evolution sometimes confounds our intellect.

Sand between my toes: A correction: I didn't say that abortion was the worst thing in the world. I said that the barbaric butchery of abortion can't be justified. It is out of control,and whatever conditions were imposed when it was first made legal they are now virtually ignored.

Teenage sex is also a free-for-all, thanks largely to the avalanche of pornography which hits them from the movies, TV, Internet video's. and magazines. Some of them have the strength of character to say NO, but far too many take what they think is the easy way out [which turns out to be the hardest way].
I would have thought that with all the readily available contraception, inintended pregnancies would be low. Is it the fault of the product or the users?
Yabby: I won't be selling my computer. You would miss fighting with me if I did. However my wife and I sponsor two overseas children, hoping you do the same.

Hamlet, you are correct, we should not ignore our evolutionary past.
OTOH Nature does not give a hoot, if we enjoy our lives or not, as
long as we reproduce. But we care.

I fail to see why you have such high regard for abstinence, when
sex with somebody we love, can be so pleasurable and so fullfilling.
Catholic priests might deny their natural urges, but even they have
been shown to fail miserably in reality. Again its a question of
what we think versus what we feel, ie. emotion versus reason.
IMHO we are emotional creatures who think a little bit, not the other
way round.

I don't believe that modern contraception is such a failure either.
I see it as a massive improvment over what was 50 years ago!

Al, you have made my point for me. Clearly you would rather argue with me, then sell your computer and send the 1000$ to Africa, to
save another 2-3 lives. We now know your priorities! :)

IMHO most of the starving babies are also in those parts of the world where women, (no thanks to those Catholics) don't have free
access to family planning, abortion, etc. So they pop them out,
5,6,10, whatever comes along. If they had a free choice, perhaps they would prefer 2 or 3, properly fed, properly educated, just like
Western women do. The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for.
I still think that the pope should be charged with environmental
degradation....

Yabby, I am not talking about long term abstinence, by any means.

I am talking about the situation, for instance, where a horney couple cannot get hold of condoms for a few hours or days. Better to wait a short time, rather than take the risk and either have to raise an unwanted child or pay for a termination.

You raised sex with 'someone that we love'. Here we do have a sticking point. Are you talking about love as a feeling, the sort of 'lurv' as espoused in popular music, fiction and soap operas, or the sort of love that requires an deep, unshakeable devotion, commitment and duty, in sacrifice of self?

What passes for love these days is just the feeling of 'being in love', which may make for wonderful sex, but rarely passes onto the next phase.

True love between a couple can really only be equated to the same level of attachment and caring that a parent has for their child. Few parents will completely leave their children because they are not satisfied in the relationship with them. This is partly biological, of course.

However there are many people who leave their partners, after professing what they called love, and making a solemn oath, promise or vow to love their spouse. If someone can, in good conscious, leave a dutiful and caring spouse, even if that person does not meet up to their expectations, then love was never there in the first place.

If someone says "for better, for worse: for richer, for poorer; in sickness and in health; to love and to cherish, till death us do part" and then they leave the marriage in search of self fullfillment then they never loved the other person at all.

And how does this affect contraception and abortion? Love is no guarantee of great sex, and great sex is not guarantee of love. But if a couple actually love and respect each other then they wll love and respect the sex that they have, and will make sure that they will approach sex with thought and responsibility.

Just wanted to comment on how refreshing it is to hear people of differing ideologies actually discussing abortion and discussing their experiences and ideas, instead of hurling insults at each other... [mostly... :) ]!