GZ, it goes like this:

You assert there is a heaven.

I ask, what is heaven, because I have no knowledge of it.

You then explain the concept and its salient features to me.

Is that too complicated?

goodthief asks:

>>Pericles, isn't your rationale the same as CJM's: ie "lack of empirical evidence"?<<

I don't know. There may be tons of empirical evidence, for all I know. Once someone cares to explain it, I'll be more aware of the presence or lack of evidence.

>>usually the topic starts with God. It matters because it's very hard to speak about heaven and hell without God already "on the table": then, heaven becomes "Where God is", and hell "Where God ain't"<<

Please understand that in asking these questions, I am not looking for any form of proof. I am simply trying to discover what people who do believe in heaven, think it consists of. Asking the question again:

Do you believe that heaven and hell exist, in the sense that we exist? Or are they merely metaphysical constructs, that we can imagine and change at will? Or are they simply metaphors, illustrating the benefits of a good life and the pitfalls of a bad one?

And coach, I'm afraid this is tautologous.

>>Your lack of belief is a result of your convenient denial of God<<

The fact that I am unconvinced of the existence of God, and the fact that I lack any belief in God, are the same. One does not lead to the other. They exist in parallel.

Incidentally, what is “convenient” about it?

>>Further more what difference would it make to you what/where Heaven and Hell are<<

I'm interested. It doesn't make a difference to me in any sense other than I am curious about what makes people tick. And in the ideas that people have about life, the universe and everything.

>>Some “thing” must have caused the universe to exist... God is that “thing”. All other theories require faith.<<

I'm puzzled that you think that believing in God doesn't require faith. How does that work?

Pericles, On heaven and hell, you will get different answers from different people. I can start the ball rolling.

Basically, I believe heaven is what God had in mind for us when he made us. It’s a beautiful “place”, with nothing wrong or dangerous in it, and God is there. In the Eden story, Adam and Eve (after just eating the forbidden fruit and feeling very uneasy about it) “heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, and they hid themselves ….” (Genesis ch 3, v 8) The way this reads to me, the sound of God in the garden was not unusual.

As a consequence of the “falling out” that occurs between humanity and God, we find ourselves in a very different place: it’s intrinsically dangerous, we are at each other’s tender mercies, we have a use-by date and God is less evident and harder to grasp. Fortunately, this is a temporary state of affairs. God has been at pains (Xians believe this literally) to restore the original, intended situation: good, lush, safe, intimate with God and with a breeze of an evening.

According to this description, heaven is the world as God originally intended it. Others believe it is where God himself ordinarily “resides”: after all, as we believe that the Creator and creation are distinct, there must be such a “place”. In either case, heaven is regarded as real – probably MORE REAL than what we have experienced to date – eg we will probably have bodies in heaven. Some call death an awakening, as though we are just dreaming now. In heaven, each of us is perfect – as originally intended. Of course, it’s a highly recommended destination.

Hell, I see as the consequence of a fully-considered rejection of God. Finally, we are given what we choose. It’s a place or a state where God isn’t. Perhaps Hell is simply not-heaven – say, dying and not waking up. I don’t know. I doubt that there are many people there.

Pax,

Thank you for providing a thoughtful response goodthief.

>>On heaven and hell, you will get different answers from different people<<

OK, that helps. This tells me that an understanding of heaven and hell is pretty much a matter of personal taste. This would explain why the Southern Baptist preacher, for example, appears to hold a very different position to that of yourself.

On the topic of hell, at least.

But if this is acceptable - i.e., there is and can be no single definition of these two places that hold such a key role in Christianity - we are still left with the question, can they possibly be "real", in the sense of time and place that we as earth-dwellers are aware of?

From your answer, I suspect not.

Your description of heaven is a most beguiling one, that is certain. Though to hang it on the existence of Adam and Eve as real people, as opposed to an allegory for innocence and harmony, does seem a little of a stretch. It requires a literalist approach to the bible, which is not the easiest proposition for most people to accept.

Would I be unfair in eliminating the "tangible" option, and concentrate instead on the metaphysical or metaphorical angles?

Pericles,

My approach may be different.

Heaven & hell is not even remotely a logical starting point for consideration. Not unless heaven & hell can be proven.

Question is, have you exhausted your own answers on how life had come about, for instance?

If so, shouldn't you allow your answers be challenged rather than jumping to cast doubts on heaven & hell?

FH,

I need clarifications on the claim that Virgin Birth, Resurrection and Muhammad's angel encounters "are all EQUALLY IMAGINARY events".
Even supposing they are all imaginary, I do not see how they are EQUALLY imaginary.

In any case, if Virgin Birth is a proven fact, Muhammad's tales remain problematic.
But because Muhammad (pretended) to believe in virgin Mary, so if Virgin Birth is only imaginary, then your Islam is a fraud twice over.

Continue your faith in Muhammad's hoax. Who can blame you?

GZ Tan,

I guess the question is:
Why did you deny your true beliefs if you believed they were real?

Why you keep challenging others hiding behind a mask of being logical and agnostic? while answering pericles with the brainwashee answer:
'there must be a proof but I am not a preacher'! SO the truth is written right there but we need to give you enough time to get the right priest? Give us a break.

Peace and have a lovely weekend, think of me and pericles when you are in sunday school with open jaws and wide staring eyes.

Adios Mr Hoax,

GZ Tan: "...if Virgin Birth is a proven fact"

Which of course it isn't. You can't prove it and nor can anybody else.

All you can do is believe in it - which would be quite OK if you weren't so obnoxious to anybody who doesn't share your screwy ideas and/or loopy version of rationality.