It is sad to see so much public discussion about Muslims.

It really is time for the media to cut back on it. The 350,000 or so Muslims in this country must feel stressed as soon as they step outside their front doors. They must also be feeling angry - and that is not going to do our great multicultural experiment much good.

Just as long as Australians learn to hide any hate, ill will, misogyny and other pathologies behind a religion all will be OK. As a muslim I do it and it's accepted without question. It's part of my religion.

There is a growing resentment of Muslims world wide but why? It is because of their behaviour. For example, I grew up in Sydney to move to Queensland. When I returned for two years in 2002 - 2004, all I found were Middle Eastern Muslims running about harrassing the white Australian who opened the door of this nation to them.

We opened our hearts to them and in response, we get attacked on a daily basis. I could not go out anyway in Sydney without being either glared at with pure hate or approached so as to intimidate me. I actually had to defend myself once after being attacked for no reason but being a white Aussie.

No matter where they go in the world, Muslims take extreme violence with them and you never EVER hear them condemn it. They have religious leaders out there encouraging hatred and yet, we get accused of being 'white supremecists' for calling on them to behave or, GET OUT!

I have spoken with a mate who is currently a NSW Police Detective and he is quick to air his frustration at being denied the ability to control the rapidly increase in ethnic crime, mostly among Islamic Lebenese and Pakistani's.

If you behave like vermin, expect to be treated like it.

After seeing that Sydney has been turned into a mudpit that stinks where Middle Easters live, I now want them gone. All of them. It use to be a nice place and I don't want Australia to become like France where old white ladies are dragged out of buses and set alight by Muslims for a bit a fun for a bit of fun.

I can only support Healthwatcher here - we and the media give matters Islam far to much attention - And if Ridley read these pages or indeed the blogspotsa of people like Andrew Bolt or Piers Akerman - she would draw the conclsion we are a bunch of Muslim haters - it has become a national delusion "Islamanoia" I call it - feel free to use it liberally in conversation

There is no place for Islam in Western society.

jiminey crickets...

well I knew a muslim family for a little while....
and of course I found the traditions and thinking
of a completely different culture, and religion

a very bit strange at first....

but I bore with it, did some study, a little on the koran too
but decided to go with it slowly...
the family were all learning english,

and I will never forget the phrase, of an english essay done by
one of the teenage boys.....
with a final
remark to it

"I am only doing this essay so I can pass english this year"...grin

swapping cultures has to be hard, and basically it takes work,
for different cultures and or religions, to try and understand it

JHH

Manny. I haven't heard of Ridley, or you for that matter. Who cares what one (or two) more rabid writers think? I don't.

I must ask why are you "guessing" which countries are the worst? Your summary is about as helpful as Ridley's statements and just as likely to cause anger.

Spider says there is a growing resentment against Muslims because of their behaviour. I suspect that growing is inside Spider. Spider, it is the behaviour of a minority, not every Muslim.If every Muslim behaved that way you would know about it big time. Just for the record could you please point out all the mass Muslim rallies or attacks or similar that have occurred in Australia? There haven't been any mate. Nor will there be.

Do you equally judge all Christians by the behaviour of a few rabid believers? Hopefully not but I suspect you might.

How much do any of us know about each other's religion and why does any difference cause such angst?

I don't believe in a God but I do believe in most of what is prescribed in both the Bible and Koran. That is basically live peacefully. I wish.

All Christians and Muslims know this and would prefer to live that way but it is the minorities in each religion and the haters (you too Sage) who hold long term resentments which burst out at the worst moments.

Why should anyone hate anyone for their personal beliefs? It's downright idiotic. Like hating the sun because the sun makes it hard to see the moon during the day. Ridiculous, yes?

Could any Muslim here correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding of one of the major differences is that Muslims don't believe Jesus was the Son of God?

Actually neither do I and neither did Jesus if any of you care to research it. He is actually supposed to have referred to himself as the "Son of Man', meaning just another human but the Christians perverted that statement with one word which has made the Christian beliefs a fraud. Sorry Christians.

Australians 'the worst Muslim haters in the world'?

I guess only one nation can win the prize

On the list of who cares -

Muslims - the religion it is easiest to grow to hate in the world.

Why I bought the Satanic Verses -

well it was a good idea - anyone who can get so far up the nose of the religious bigots cannot be all bad.

As for Phillips, Cat Stevens (or whatever he calls himself these days) and every other ranting fanatic with a towel on their head -

If ya dont like Australia - dont bother to come here and for sure, I will not bother to visit any of the sand filled cesspool which spend their time enforcing islamist medieval doctrins.

Most Australians have learned to growl a bit and shift along to let the newcomer have some room on the bench. That's what we have done for ages.For many other people.
But when the newcomer complains and threatens for more room than anyone else,including us, we stand up and say, "No!"
That is our perception of Muslims,right or wrong, it is their own bad behaviour that has rubbed us all the wrong way.
Why be so demanding, so rude, so menacing in a country that has taken you in and really helped you? Why allow one of your so called leaders to insult and offend your hosts? Maybe if Muslims had some manners or consideration for other cultures this whole business would never have arisen, the pity is that it has arisen and the stain of ingrate has spread to the whole lot.

well I found the muslim family...different to say the least

they are/were used to guns, and owning them
they are/were used to bribery, especially in their
own countries, Syria and Jordan
they are/were used to the idea that bank interest was wrong ?

I couldnt understand that passing money to others all the time,
was not considered equivalent to bank interest ? etc.
however the what I called bribery was just a money system,
that they were used to
and getting used to our system was very strange for them

they are/were used to the dad being the final word, to their
comings and goings and anything else

until they were married.... then they were free ? um eh

they are/were used to ladies with below the knee clothing

they are/were used to mum, covering up outside.... and not being
seen in home garb by other strange men in the house

..........

I learnt a lot about their culture, and they learnt a lot from me/us,

and I remember thinking, jiminey crickets I would not last long
in Syria...grin being the hardcore against abuse type person...grin
had to learn what was expected there.....

I dont know about all muslim cultures/countries, but I found it very
interesting to know them, and I learnt a lot

JHH

Just this evening a television program staged a situation where a young Muslim male wearing some type of religious head gear asked for donations to his mosque.

He walked up to passersby on the street, cup in hand asking for donations. I think that I was more surprised than he was to witness the number of people who actually gave him a donation.

I would not have donated to any church because I would have thought that the members of the church or mosque should fund their own desires.

The majority of Australians are clearly not racist. Simply another urban myth.

History has shown us that Christianity and Islam always penetrate foreign societies with great upheaval.

The main reason for this is that they are religions who proselytise aggressively without compromise. Muslims call Christians "missionaries" as a term of derision, but really Islam is just as missionary as its conterpart.

Because Australia is both Christian and secular society it is unsurprising that some Australians resent having Islam shoved down their throats via the usual gung-ho missionary tactics.

However, this is the montheistic way and non-Muslim Australians shouldn't really expect anything different. After all, monotheists sincerely believe that it is their duty to save society and to prevent as many people as possible from burning in hell.

The few Muslims I know, I like very much but that doesn't mean the Muslim community as a whole is not hostile and dangerous. It clearly is. I think we've only had a strong awareness of local Islam for a decade or so, yet we already have a chicken-and-egg-problem (eg Cronulla).

I don't think we're a nation of haters - ie of people who enjoy hating. However, I do believe we are literally Islamaphobic (afraid of Islam): and with good reason. It isn't hatred yet, but I think the fear will morph into hatred if we don't manage it. I've always heard that the best cure for fear is information - so, without rhapsodising, I'd agree with JHH that getting nearer to "the problem" is more likely to work than standing back and glaring at them. Get inquisitive, and all going well it will be reciprocated.

I'm not optimistic about this - the behaviour of Muslims in Europe is not very promising - but I still think we should give it a go.

Great post pegasus. Agree with your observations entirely.

In my experience, there are extremists in all circles - including those we might consider to be our own. Your appraisal of the author of this piece, is about right to me.

I also believe they [extremists] are generally small in number (whatever their 'background') - despite their abilty to raise the decibels. Like wasps, if you ignore them, eventually, they go away.

WHO.... ARE THE HATERS ?

Quran 9:30

SHAKIR: And the JEWS say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the CHRISTIANS say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; MAY ALLAH DESTROY THEM; how they are turned away!

HADITH bukhari Volume 4 Book 56 number 660

On his death-bed Allah's Apostle put a sheet over his-face and when he felt hot, he would remove it from his face. When in that state (of putting and removing the sheet) he said, "MAY ALLAH'S CURSE BE ON THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS for they build places of worship at the graves of their prophets."

JESUS TAUGHT.

3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven

We could well be living in 1936 many refused to see that mad Nazi as a threat many in fact loved him.
Muslims hate us far more than we hate them.
But we are learning ,not yet to hate but maybe not to trust or believe many of them.
How many believe anything that Trad bloke says?
As his lips move you can see he is about to lie.
A world free of any and all religion that says some humans are lesser people would be a better world.

It used to be claimed that Australia rode on the sheep's back.
Would that be the same sheep who pass as citizens, the sheep which are herded by "leaders" and mass media to distrust Muslims, terrorists (whatever they are supposed to be), in fact ANYTHING which is not the norm?

Australians are conditioned into accepting competition as desirable.
It's important to the misguided culture have someone to fight, and to suffer from religious fervour in support of clash.

Richard Dawkins makes a profound proposal- "Imagine No Religion."
I wish!

To those posters on this thread that are critical of "Muslims"

Cannot you be a bit more specific and does your criticism have a purpose?

Mine is specific in that I am critical of Lebanese muslims and the purpose is to stop further immigration of this incompatable group.

Firstly we, in Aus, do not seem to have problems with muslims, other than the Leb variety. I have not seen or heard of many problems with other nationalities of muslims. so general criticism is unjustified, but more than enough evidence exists to show that Leb muslims will not integrate and many (not just a few) cause disharmony in the community. It also must be noted that we have no problems with the Lebanese people that are not muslim.

If anyone can show that we do have problems, in Aus, with muslims that are not Lebs, I would like to know. Reports from overseas show problems with other muslims nationalities and that is worth keeping tabs on.

As i said my purpose is to stop Leb muslim immigration so as not to compound the problems. This means lobbying my local MP and the Minister for Immigration each time a Leb muslim incident arises, which is quite often. Letters to local and major papers as well.
I does little to just have a bitch on OLO, and you wil not alter the opinion of the left anyway. Don't give OLO away, just use other avenues as well.

I do think a good case can be put to stop Leb muslim immigration but based on our local experience, not muslim immigration in general.

Some things to think about.

Sorry Pegasus I was making a burlesque of the topic of religion. Just to prove that I can transcend the restrictions and dictates of organized religion I cast off my 3 hour encounter with Islam and I am now a Pastafarian, attracted to the Flying Spaghetti Monster religion. Wikipedia has more on this obscure religion. Its title neatly sums up my view of all religions.

Banjo, maybe it isn't all about the Lebanese Muslims, what do you think of the Africans, the Sudanese and the Somalis etc. People who have been raised in constant warfare where tribe must beat tribe, are not going to make peaceful citizens. Tribes who live by violence ,corruption are not going to settle down in OZ streets and take up playing bowls instead of shooting to kill.
So why is this government and others putting our reasonably peaceful
Australian way of life at risk?
The young [tribal] people must be bored out of their minds hence the ethnic gangs, it a way of life for them.It is totally natural for them to act in that way and it is totally wrong to inject that violence into our lives.

BANJO...I gave specific reasons critical of Islam, and therefore, why it is also important to consider a total halt to muslim immigration.

VALUES and FUNDAMENTALS. I showed how the foundation documents of Islam curse Christians and Jews (and its WORSE for mere infidels) and call for their destruction. This alone is seditious, vilifying and incompatable with Western Culture.

These 'values' will not come to the fore while this community is a minority, but if they gain more power and become numerous.....watch out.

We only see this side (read on)

Narrated Jarir bin 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Allah will not be merciful to those who are not merciful to mankind."
Bukhâri Volume 9, Book 93, Number 473

Yet this SAME man, who claims that those without mercy in fact condemns HIMSELF because we also read in the Hadith of his horrific treatment of mutilating the bodies of living prisoners. Mercy? Hardly
Muslim Book 016, Number 4131: (regarding some camel thieves who killed mohammad's shepherd)

"He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died."

Was he 'merciful' ? not in any way shape or form. So... on a good day 'he forgives' on a bad day 'he hacks off your hands and feet and gouges out your eyes'

If people are blind to the awful inhumanity and darkness of this so called religion then they only have themselves to blame for what comes upon them.

Austrlians would be erring to hate Muslims, (who are as much victims of Islamic darkness as anyone) but they would be absolutely correct to hate and despise "Islam" as a religion.

FORGIVENESS_IN_ISLAM.
Bukhari Volume 4, Book 56, Number 676
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/016.smt.html
A man murders 99 people, and is looking for forgiveness. He kills those advising him if he doesn't like their advice. Then he is told 'goto this village'. He is just over halfway and dies and Allah then forgives him because of his 'location'. There is no mention whatsoever of a change in heart. Go figure.

mickijo,
I do not confine my lobbying, against further immigration, only to Leb muslims. Croats and serbs are others whose conduct I find unacceptable and I document their actions and build a case against them as well. Their rioting and fighting each other has resulted in shots fired at buildings, cars burnt and a bus trashed in the aftermarth of just 2 soccer matches. We certainly do not need more of them. I expect immigrants to leave their age old hatreds behind when they come here.

You will note that the Lebs, croats and serbs are 2nd or even 3rd generation Aussies now, so we can't take deportation action.

If you know of groups that could be incompatable with our way of life, I suggest you keep a file or folder in your PC and put every news item and other info in that and you will build a lot of factual information for use later. Your opponants will find it difficult to counter facts. Then lobby your local MP and the Minister.

It took 30 years for them to wake up but eventually both the Government and the Opposition have now dumped multiculturalism. Lets hope discriminatory migration doesn't take that long.

Why is it that whenever I read one of Banjo's posts here, in my head I hear 'Dueling Banjos' from the film 'Deliverance'?

Mind you, it always seems appropriate.

It is amazing that in the land of OZ so few have created such grief in so short a time span.Could it be the Koranic per verses?

We have still time to escape the shackles that Europe now endures.Do we have the wisdom and courage to escape this oppressive scurge?

Islam will gather more momentum by the very nature of it's simplistic basal urges.In the realm of the ignorant is is far easier to be tribal and aggressive to attain power,than to aspire to the disciplines of knowledge,however the complexity of a pluralistic society does create suspicion and hate in the hearts of those who intentionly marginalise themselves.

Islam and the West are at the antipodes.

Arjay: Even if enough Australians become convinced that we need to avoid what Europe is experiencing, how do you think we should go about it?

Boaz draws a really important distinction:

'Australians would be erring to hate Muslims, (who are as much victims of Islamic darkness as anyone) but they would be absolutely correct to hate and despise "Islam" as a religion.'

So, when I ask how we go about it, I mean 'How do we go about it without being unjust to Muslim people?'. My only thought is to do what we can to get closer to them, and try to interest them in a way of living more peacefully. (As I am a Xian, I must make clear here that I DON'T mean sneak up on them and evangelise. I'm talking about what all non-Muslim Australians can do.) Maybe this would influence them to look more critically at what they are taught, even look in their own scriptures for something better than what we usually hear about. Fellow Human says this goes on anyway, so maybe we could help it to increase. I can't imagine working on Islam from the outside as being anything but destructive and inflammatory.

No idea what the chances of success are, and I'd love to hear additional or better ideas.

Once more I do not think Australians hate Muslims, but I do ask do some Muslims living in Australia hate us?
Some , you will find them in any thread, are convinced truly held concerns are generated only by Medea intent on directing our thoughts.
Some claim us to be xenophobic ,hardly even close to true.
This country has thrived on migration from every country in the world, multi culture's s not in any way under threat.
I question migration from some not all from this religion.
And I require my my right to believe in no God to be proteced.
I know of only one religion that would condemn me to death for my belief.
We are told in our education of evolution and then in fear of death we all will face give power to religions fueled by fear to impose views that divide men on us.
Who needs help now? what a great world awaits if we stop saying we need bed time story's to live by
I think we need to be aware education if not honest is the most dangerous thing in the world.
Some quite openly dumb down whole peoples we need to be aware of this.

Australians 'the worst Muslim haters in the world'? No, not at all. The experience in societies everywhere is the same.

Anwar Shaikh was a devout Pakistani Muslim who killed 3 sikhs in 1947 in the name of his religion. Later he emigrated to the UK where he gave up Islam and became one of its ardent critic.( http://www.islam-watch.org/AnwarSheikh/index.html) In a book “Islam and Terrorism” written by Shaikh and reviewed by Koenraadelst described the Muslim community,

“Remember the good old days when the bobbies, Britain's police constables, did their rounds without carrying guns? It cannot honestly be denied that the behaviour of an ever-increasing number of young Pakistanis has contributed decisively to the sad discarding of this glorious tradition. Every non-brainwashed European can confirm that an influx of entire Muslim communities (as opposed to individuals or single families, who tend to blend in like most isolated immigrants do) has created a new set of problems for their societies. The larger these Islamic islands in Western society become, the less willingness they show to adapt, and the more they insist on maintaining or restoring Islamic mores and laws within their communities and ultimately in society as a whole.”
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/AnwarShaikh.html

Even as an oldie, haven't had much to do with Muslims, except from our troops returning from the Middle East, who got close to calling them no-hopers.

Even so, we must not forget that we have plenty of Muslims just to the north of us, largely including Indonesia and Malaysia.

Also this might be why they might act so arrogantly here? Or do they? Or is just us?

Furthmore, Malaysia as a Muslim country can be very proud of itself.

Just wonder if as former proud British colonials we are still acting our snobby pasts?

Wonder if we could use a bit more praise? Looking at out future here, better do something about it, anyhow. War War, certainly won't fix it, neither.

Bushbred "Furthmore, Malaysia as a Muslim country can be very proud of itself."

Really?

I suggest you ask the non-Malay Malaysians, like the Malay-Chinese community how they view the way that old Reprobate, Mahatia, vilified them and forced them to take on incompetent Malays into their businesses.

Malaya has been one of the most racist Countries, with the most draconian laws enacted from the Commonwealth, they were almost indistinguishable to Apartheid as practiced in South Africa.

That they are an official "Muslim" country is no coincidence to their implementation of racist social policies and programmes

It doesn't take much insight in today's events to understand that the biggest killers of Muslims are other Muslims.
Yet they are all followers of the same God, all read the same Koran but a huge gulf exists beween the killers and the killed.
How much wider is it beween the fanatics and the West? And why are they here in this country and how do you tell the difference between them? When there is so little difference .For the sake of the few who would disregard the difference, you would place the rest of the population at risk.I do not think that is right.

Many apologies Sage. Unfortunately it is unusual to see humour here and I should actually applaud it when it appears. I do so now. Humour doesn't seem to be something most who post here see, feel or understand. It worries me that maybe I'm getting there. Time for a dose of the Daily Show methinks. Or Fawlty Towers for old times sake. Thanks for your post clarifying. Some sanity exists! By the way religion deserves every jibe, it is, after all, the world's biggest fraud.

I must also applaud the 100% accurate comment by CJ. I hear that sound with many of the regulars here, don't you? Makes me feel like paddling, fast. Hope Burt can help. Just not sure what Creek we are in most days. Either way we are up to our necks in it.

Thanks KEvin. You're right. Extremists, like bullies, go away if we ignore them. Unfortunately George Bush and Little Bush Howard didn't making them all the more stronger. Even now they won't see what they have created and continue to grow.

Ah, Belly. Nazis? Please.

Banjo. You've done it again (kerplunk, kerplunk for CJ). Lumping all Lebanese into that group of mid teens morons that are probably Lebanese and hated by their own community. And how did they all get to be representative of Muslims? They aren't actually all Muslims mate.

Still waiting for Spider's list of Muslim rallies etc. Must be thumbing through his copies of the "Muslim Times" ads.

Arjay. Do you know what basal and antipodes mean? I see your version but it really isn't relevant mate. Antipodes is a geographical notion, not idealological. As basal is a botanic term.

Boaz,
Sorry old son, not ignoring you. Did not see your post untill I had posted reply to mickijo and then was caught up in the 2 posts in 24 hrs thing, so had to cool my heels for a while.

My object for the post was to get other posters to realize that there are other ways to put ones point of view across that may have more effect than OLO, but am sure you do not need to be told that.

The first obstacle we have to overcome is to get politicians out of the non-discrimatory immigration mind set. If they change they will cop plenty flack so they will need the best case for change. The Leb muslims have given us that on a plate. This being an election year, the polys are also tuned into voter impact, so maybe now is not the right time to upset 200000 voters and give the opposition a free kick. The polys will be thinking of the nett voter impact.

If you think you have enough to make a case to stop muslim immigration then go ahead. I am very aware of the problems in Europe, not only from Prof Isreali's warnings, but from my own connections as well and will contiue to monitor this. But considering low problems in Aus, I don't think a case can be put to stop muslim immigration in general. A case to stop Leb muslim immigration is a different kettle of fish.

Of course I could well be wrong. Good luck!

No Worries Banjo... all good.

I just wish CJ had not mentioned 'Deliverance' because I saw that movie and just about chocked during 'certain' scenes, they were so unbelievable. From memory I switched chanels around the point of the bush 'encounter' is was just too sickening and dark. Then I came back towards the end to see the 'bad guys' caught.

On the Leb Muslims thing, you might run foul of the 'racial discrimination' act by singling out a specific race, but as you wished me good luck, I say do your darndest mate if you feel so strongly about it.

As for me, I just campaign here and in some other sites, I write to Immig and members etc. I am tinkering with the idea of using Quran 9:30 on a sign outside the Islamic Information and Support Centre but with the words reversed to read "Muslims... may God destroy them" and when the reaction comes, I'll show them what the Quran says about Christians and Jews so they might understand something about their own religion.

Also, I'm affiliated now with AIM which you might like to consider also, I'm sure ur contributions would be valued.
http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=575&Itemid=30

I have no problem with the religion as a religion but I do have a problem of the religion that is so good at spreading violence. You only have to look at European nations like France.

My problem is there behaviour and my problem is what has happened to Sydney since this lot has turned their parts into a smelly pit of sewage. The police even have a squad dedicated to them.

If they behaved properly, then people would not be unhappy with them but hey, they don't. You only have to spend sometime working for Australia Post where Filopino's were using all stand urinal for all their toiletry means, not to forget the wall. Or, how about throwing food crumbs at the few white Australian's working there. Or, the Chinese leading hands who, in front of upper management, made racist remarks against whites but hey, that's ok.

If you don't like us or like it here, POQ.

So, Boaz, you have found some kindred spirits at the Australian Islamist Monitor - good for you!

You are in great company. The posts are something special - here's a guy called chriz giving the English language a thorough workout:

"i am trying to think of something witty but all i want to say is muslims sh#t me to tears. they are trying to convert (or rather revert) our beautiful country into a backwards sh#t hole similar to where the bludgers came from. no more. if our cops can't bust through a door and sort out some low life criminals who can? no sarcism intended. this is one of the lowest acts by the brain dead civil libity, PC knuckle heads i have ever come across. i have actually heard about this happening over seas, if it happens here i think i will vomit."

Nice. Note the carefully constructed arguments, the clear and concise expression and the sheer... poetry, yes, that's the word, poetry of it all.

They will no doubt thoroughly appreciate your encyclopaedic knowledge of the gorier bits of the Qur'an, and your propensity for placards.

Yes, I can see chriz going for the placards.

Keep the words short, though, won't you.

Good try Pegasas at intellectual snobbery.The antipodes are the opposites of North and South.If you wait long enough the magnetic poles do swap and north becomes south.Did you know that there is a true north and a magnetic one?

As for "basal" I think you have reached the very depths of the same urges.You can disagree by the dexterity of words in an argument,but adhominem statements just refect your own inadaquacies.

Boaz,
One thing I forgot to mention. A large scale terrorist attack on a western target could change the whole scene in relation to stopping muslim immigration. We know the idiots will attack again somewhere.

I thought "Deliverance" was a poor movie, but the music is good. On C J Morgan, I think "Turkey in the Straw" is appropriate for him. Once again excellant bango piece.

Good Thief , Periclea,

You raised a couple of good argument and that is how draw the line between muslim majority and radicals.
I had a bit of thinking and came up with an idea that I would like to share. Its not a new idea it was actually applied by the Brits with the IRA. Rather than letting them call themselves "catholics", the British govnmt pinned them down as a political/militant separatist movement and isolating them of the catholic faith.

Part 2 of the idea is that we need to promote the carrot and the stick. that is educate the masses on moderate Islam as practiced by most while vivourously combat radicalism, this way we can all (muslim countries and western countries) can draw a thick line between ways of practice.

Right now this article is another proof of the ongoing alienation: scaring aussies and annoying peaceful Muslim majority as no-one like to see their faith being blamed for anything that goes wrong. The problem is the more alientation you cause to a minority the more distant theyu become. Integration is a 2 way street.

Thoughts?

Boaz, please contribute with an honest opinion this time only and then you can go back to your church of hate-ontology and repent on the weekend!

Peace,

Actually, "Deliverance" was quite a seminal (ahem... absolutely no pun intended) film of the 70s, which won at least one Oscar, as I recall. And the music was indeed good.

Amongst other things, the film presented masculinity in very challenging ways (some very graphic), including the banjo 'duel' between one of the 'average middle class white businessman' protagonists on a guitar and an apparently inbred hillbilly kid on a banjo, who ultimately dominates the closing sequences of 'Dueling Banjos' (the music was all dubbed, of course), and sets up the hillbilly/suburbanite extremities to come. And Boazy's quite right, the film is confronting and graphic in its depiction of sexual violence, although I'm not sure he'd use his misspelt metaphor if he'd sat through the unedited cut of the film ;)

Anyway, the admittedly caricatured image of the guy who played the banjo in that scene is pretty well what springs to mind when I read some of the more extremely idiotic and/or hateful posts from more than a few of the regulars here. Maybe that's why when I read our Banjo's pearls of wisdom, I subconsciously begin to hear the 'kerplunk, kerplunk' to which pegasus refers more loudly than usual.

On that subject, 'Turkey in the Straw' is a wonderful old American folk tune/song - do you perform it in blackface, Banjo?

Goodthief asks,"Even if enough Australians become convinced that we need to avoid what Europe is experiencing,how do you think we should go about it?

Well a good start Goodthief would be to censor all the hate,bile and notions of superior "Chosen People of God,Allah,and Yahweh mentality".Unless we remove the source of the problem,it will continue to fester.Remove this nonsense from all religious texts.Next let any of these religious nutters of any sect,know the parameters of their power and influence.Step out of line and expect the full force of the law.Currently we handle them with kid gloves for fear of making them violent and that empowers them all the more.

I would liken Cronulla to a headmaster at a school punishing those who retaliated against a bully because the headmaster does not know how to control the bully.You can silence the victim more easily because they are already oppressed and that his job[headmaster]would be made easier while the sore of resentment festers in the rest of the school.

For NSW Labor this will work for a short term but the long term damage mounts because no one has the courage to confront the bullies.The people of Cronulla were beaten with the racism stick by our left wing media and academics.Guess what, Morris Iemma supports them since he then does not have to make risky or hard decisions.Typical gutless pollies.

If the the abuse continues by these Middle Eastern gangs,then we will eventually have the first civil war caused by ill planned immigration policies.This is one of the reasons why Amanda was sacked.She was a good person but had not a clue about the friction beneath her feet.

Aussies similar to USA cannot deny the fact that they have no basis to hate Muslims or any other creed, race or culture. This is simply due to the fact that they have gone to far in to multi cultural,religion,race and etc...nations. This mean that to hate a group who is in your country is same as hating your own brother.

Dear Pericles, you would have more cred if you looked at articles written by those on the website, rather than simply cutting and pasting the most salubrious and illiterate "comment" from some poster.

F.H. did I post anything untrue ? Did I misrepresent Islam? If so, how?
Were their factual errors in my post about 9:30? Interpretive errors?

The difference between my appproach and yours, is that I am on the rough end of the doctrinal Islamic 'stick'.. it calls for MY destruction, says "I" am deluded and far from the truth simply because I believe the Gospel of God in Christ.
Now.. it is in your interests to select little chunks of Islam which suit your purpose of portraying it as "socially compatible, friendly and enlightened" but you should see my side of this. "May Allah Destroy them" meaning 'me' is not a good look.

The New Testament (and the old) does not call for the destruction of Muslims because it doesn't mention them. ... quite different from calling for the wholesale destruction of a religious and ethnic group (Jews and Christians) as the Quran does.

The level of anti semitism in many Hadiths is astounding. Aisha hates the idea of holding your knees during prayer "Because the JEWS do that"

So.. the Quran HATES Christians and Jews (calls for our destruction) and 'we' are then called 'Muslim haters'? hmmmmmm something smelly in that pot mate.
You could mention that the Quran also says "People of the Book are closest" etc, but then it also says this:
4:116
YUSUFALI: Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).

Who is that? why its ME and every Christian of course. So, there is a serious contradiction there mate. We don't join 'other gods' to God, we both know this refers to the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus.

My dishonesty meter is not even registering here.

>>Dear Pericles, you would have more cred if you looked at articles written by those on the website, rather than simply cutting and pasting the most salubrious and illiterate "comment" from some poster<<

You still don't understand, do you?

Every hate-inspired movement creates its own truths, so that it can pretend that it has pure motives at heart. Take a look at the Ku Klux Klan website. http://www.kkk.com/

[Intriguingly, it only works with Internet Explorer. I guess being in league with the devil and being in league with Microsoft are not that far apart after all]

Their home page announces they are "Bringing a Message of Hope and Deliverance to White Christian America! A Message of Love NOT Hate!" (The exclamation points are theirs)

I'll pass quietly over their claims to Christianity, because that isn't my point. People like this post highly erudite disquisitions on the "rightness" and "justice" of their cause, but normal people see it as pure dissembling. Their mission is hatred of "the other", and they deploy every weapon at their disposal.

They particularly like well-meaning Christians with firm views on non-Christians.

But as far as my "cred" is concerned, in pointing out one of the less well-read members of the forum, I was simply recalling an old song, the first verse of which contains this highly relevant observation:

"'You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses',
Then the pig got up and slowly walked away."

[The Famous Pig Song: Clarke Van Ness, music by F. Henri Klickmann]

Boaz,

You said “F.H. did I post anything untrue?”

The issue is all your comments about Islam in intentional ‘half-truth’ which ends up being worse than a full lie.

Take the stance on Christians as per your above quote. The missing half truth in your statement is across parts 2, 3 and 4: That there are many good believers among Christians and Jews and Sabeans and that all good believers should have no fear on judgement day.

Islamic theology is almost identical to Judaism on strict monotheism (ie God is one, shall not make images of God, to love only God, etc)
You are barking up the wrong tree by asking either theology to accept or bless the three in one approach. You want to be a true follower of Judaism or Abraham’s faith you have a duty to examine your theories. If it makes sense to you that’s great live with it and don’t seek assurances from others.
The Quran doesn't hate anyone but merely describes the right theology and what good believers are and should be doing.
Do you see Muslims asking Christians to confirm that monotheism is good? We don’t care. Worship whichever way you like it’s your life. Just let us be in peace.

Now, please respect eveyone else on this forum and stick to the topic..

Peace,

Hardy and Arjay,

Hate is a pretty stong term and I think you will find very little hatred of muslims. You will find dislike and if you question further you find this is dislike of Lebanese muslims. Lebanese are, by far, the most populas of the muslims in Aus, so we encounter more of them than other nationalities.

The reason for this dislike of "Lebs" is because of their rude and offensive attitudes and behaviour, especially towards women. There is an arrogance and beligerance that prevents them from becoming part of our society. This attitude is cultural and is past from one generation to the next. It is not restricted to gangs of youths either. Older men seem to have the same attitudes.

I have not seen or heard many bad reports in relation to muslims of other nationalities. Nor any bad reports of conduct by Lebanese that are not muslim. Unfortunitatly the poor reputation of the Lebs rubs off on other groups of muslims.

The point is that this group are not suited to our society. There is not hatred involved from our side, it is simply a recognition of cultural incompatability. Mostly these people are Aus citizens, so we are stuck with what we have, but why do we persist in compounding the problem by allowing more of this group into the country.

The lebs seem to have utter disdain for every aspect of our society, so why we continue to allow them here is a good question and why they continue to want to come here is another question.

Dear Banjo

Thanks for your correction but I don't see any difference between Hate and Dislike. Many times dislikes can result in hatered. If you were sensitive enough then the best way to influence the lebs will not to dislike them but to love them. Accept them and then they will begin to accept you aswell. Remember two approaching forces result in collision. I think my best opinion is that the Aussies were hereditary born to hate the lebs as Banjo said it was passed from ancestors.

The custom and tradition passed will always cause overlooks and neglegence to good and positive solutions to solving the whole issues between the Aussies and the Lebs muslim. Iam neither aussie nor a muslim just an interested person from another country But Iam a Christian.

Arjay: Surely we’re stuck with the contents of the various religious scriptures. Bearing in mind how each group regards its scriptures, there’s really no point asking them to remove passages.

What they should be doing, though, is looking at their scriptures closely and even critically. This goes on all the time in many Jewish and Xian circles. I think historically it used to happen in Islam, but that it stopped happening (Fellow Human, do you know anything about this?).

And I agree with your next point: belonging to a religion should not excuse a breach of the peace; the law has been too “hands-off” religion for a long time.

Fellow Human & Boaz, You both seem to be right about the Qur'an: it contains an amazing mixture of material, from the beautiful to the frightening and disgraceful. We’re stuck with that, I think. So, the question is “What do we DO?” The startup answer is, “Brainstorm for ways of living peacefully together”, and I still think being better acquainted is a good place to start. Putting theology aside, we would find a lot that we agree about. Or, we could at least agree to disagree: this is compatible with respect and peace. The present standoff - just glaring at each other across no man's land - is not conducive to peace.

By the way, I don't mean to make it sound easy.

BTW Boaz, I want to make sure you saw my post of Tuesday, 24 April 2007 8:32:35 PM from the “Jesus Guilty!”, a Slice of Roman Talkback string.

Pax,

Goodthief..yes, noted mate :)

Pericles, the outstanding sign of 'evil' in the KKK website is there for all to see 'WHITE'. That is the point where nothing further has any credibility in regard to anything 'Christian' because God is "colorblind".

F.H. you're in deep trouble there mate :) ducking and weaving, grasping for the passing log as you are carried away by the surging flood of truth.

By mentioning that 'good' Christians,Jews and Sabians have nothing to fear on Judgement day is a declaration and confession of the outright internal doctrinal conflict in the Quran.

You cannot have 4:116 claiming "Allah does not forgive joining patners with Him" (words to that effect) and 9:30 "Allahs curse be on them" for believing Christ is Son of God, and then come up with
"They have nothing to fear on Judgement day".... it just cannot happen mate.

Knowing how the Muslim mind works, (to a degree) just like they refer to "Islam does not promote the killing of innocent civilians", they get out of this by declaring all civilians 'guilty'. Just so, its possible that the Sabians and Christians referred to are those who are paying the Jizya according to Mohammad's decree making them 'good'.
Even if this were the case, it reveals the shockingly arbitrary and contradictory nature of the Quran and Mohammad.

But I don't believe it to be the case, I think its just the way the 'revelations' came out on the day, they suited his purpose, as with most of them as far as I can see.

His wives are causing trouble so .."Instant revelation of convenience"

"I can replace you all...better watch out...... don't give me a hard time.. grrr" kind of thing.

Am I holding Islam up to public ridicule ? no, Islam and the Quran itself is doing that job much better than I can. Fortunately, this discussion is in good faith and intended to bring truth to the fore and reclaim you and others from the darkness in which you are currently residing.

"BRAINSTORM WAYS OF LIVING TOGETHER".... thanx GoodThief.. quite a positive challenge.

The main way of achieving this is simply to treat people kindly on a personal level.

But there is the 'personal' level and the 'national' level.
One involves the 'me/you' relationship, the other involves the social, ethnic, religious, cultural direction of the nation.

Lets ask this. "At an interfaith dialogue, the 'Christian' brings up the 'curse and destroy those Christians' passage"....

The Muslims look blank or blushed, or refer to some Sheikh for a view which minimizes the impact or meaning?

Nah..that just won't work. Christians are not that stupid..oh wait.. quite a few of them ARE, but not all. The only way that such groups can get along is to put doctrine aside for the sake of pleasant daily life, but at the same time, each side will work at the political, mission outreach, and social level to advance their own agenda. I know I sure will... and that includes attention to the
-Immigration laws,
-Migrant Resettlement rules,
-Religious Vilification laws,
-Truth and perspective in History teaching,
-Citizenship fostering,
-Call to Christ and discipleship. (first and foremost)

Muslims will seek to advance their agenda such as by making the police 'respect' their religion. For example, in the Police 'Religious Diversity Handbook' police are advised now to treat Muslim domestic violence cases differently from others.
http://awsda.org/blog/26/police-policy-reported-in-australia/
That link is a little bit colorful, but the essense appears to be accurate.

Why should police have to refer to the 'Muslim Religious leaders' in cases of domestic violence ? Makes you wonder.

Boaz,

You quote:

"By mentioning that 'good' Christians,Jews and Sabians have nothing to fear on Judgement day is a declaration and confession of the outright internal doctrinal conflict in the Quran. You cannot have 4:116 claiming "Allah does not forgive joining patners with Him""

Actually there is no conflict there whatsoever. It simply means that the Quran confirms the commandments and the Mosaic law (ie God is one, shall not make images of God, love God from all your heart).

It seems you want to follow the commandments and the tri-headed god philosophy at the same time. Sorry Islam is similar to judaism on monotheism its like a pregnancy test 0 or 100%.

What would it take to keep you on topic rather than your obsession with Islam? Can we get back to the topic at hand please?

Fellow Human, as an old cockie, having become philosophical in his old age, I commend you both on your persistence and quiet reasoning.

Also as a believer in the Nazarene Jesus, and not so
much of the more modern Christians, like a Texan preacher with a Bible in one hand and a concealed weapon under the cloak, would also wish there was many more like you, who seem to have a readiness to hang about and try to forgive like a Mandela.

While some call it wisdom and understanding, in bush language we just call it commonsensical reasoning.

Keep it up, cobber.

Good to see you're back George.We may not agree but that is what makes life interesting.

Keep moving ,it doesn'matter in which direction.

Fellow_Human

I was going to keep out of this discussion because it looked like just a hate fest. However I see your reason and good sense here. The truth is that we don't know a lot about Islam, just about the fanatics.

Banjo

Your stated view that it is only the Lebs who are a problem is merely confining your prejudices. A lot of Lebanese Muslims are great people. What percentage are a problem? Who caused the troubles in Cronulla? Wasn't it the Aussies who started it?

We are entitled to our concerns about terrorists of all kinds. I have heard that the majority of Muslims are equally concerned about the fanatics, particularly in countries like Indonesia and Pakistan. And they have face it more than anyone.

Logic, I thought that too, until Fellow Human started "informing" the Xians in the Forum that Christianity does not believe in the divinity of Jesus. Now, that's a line that leads nowhere.

FH: In your last post above, you seem to imply that a belief in the Trinity is incompatible with a desire to follow the 10 commandments. Not so. Xians typically observe these commandments (don't ask me about their level of success) as part of the Mosaic Law, and definitely regard themselves as monotheistic, Trinity and all. The Trinity is just seen as what monotheism looks like close up. Just google Nicene Creed, it's what Xians typically subscribe to.

Pax,

logic,
Are you playing "devils advocate" or do you have so little contrary argument that you resort to personal attack?

You say "Your stated view that it is only Lebs who are a problem is merely confining your prejudices" Are you saying muslims, other than Lebs, are a problem also (if so please inform) or simply saying that I am prejuciced?

How am I prejuciced? Against muslims? I said I have not seen or heard of many problems with muslims of other nationalities. Against Lebanese? I said I do nto know of any problems from Lebanese that are not muslims. Against Lebanese muslims? I have said there are also other groups that i would like to see prevented from coming here also, based ont their anti social conduct and contempt for our laws.

My conclusions simply come from my analysis of the attitudes and conduct of 'Lebs'.

I have never expressed any concern about terrorism. My comments have been entirely on matters of cultural campatability.

The troubles at Cronulla were caused by 'lebs' who, for years, harrassed beach goers and spoke offensively to females there. Police or other authorities were unable or unwilling to take action against the 'lebs'. It came to a head when two youg lifesavers were bashed by a gang of 'lebs' the week before. The locals decided to 'retake' their beach and did so with numbers the following Sunday. Some outsiders joined an this and caused a few scuffles but no one was seriously injuried. Bit different to the revenge attacks, whixh resulte in property damage and some people seriously injuried. More than a 'few' did this.

Each time there is a 'leb' incident, it is claimed that there is only a 'few' causing trouble. You say 'A lot of Lebanese Muslims are great people'. On the contrary, I say a few may be good people but a lot have nothing but diddain for us and our society.

If some of the good 'lebs' feel unfairly treated, they can blame others in their group for that.

Banjo

I am sorry if you thought that I was waging a personal attack. I try to avoid that, I do not know you. Please to not take it that way. Perhaps I misunderstood your post. I do think we should be careful of labeling all Lebanese Muslims as trouble makers.

I am not so sure that the Cronulla riots were caused be the Lebanese and would prefer not to draw that inference until I have better information.

Above all, no offence intended. I do think we have much to learn about Islam. We always have suspicions of newcomers, that is human nature and the presence of some fanatics has made the problem so much harder.

That is why we should be pleased that a Muslim like Fellow_human is taking such a part in the forum.

Intellectual snobbery Arjay? Nay my good fellow, merely an attempt to decipher your vague attampts at reading a dictionary. One word a day is enough, yes?

Religion is back here, or rather it hasn't gone anywhere. But why should it. It is a fraud. I pray some of you get that soon. I should say prey but won't.

Amusing these threads. A bunch of know nothings (mois aussi) rattling on about equal amounts of nothing for no one. On Line Opinion. That's exactly what it is and no amount of reading or writing will shift any from their concreted positions. Rather it serves to complete the solidification of widely held and totally wrong "beliefs".

If most of you actually believe what you write here we are in deep doo doo. For Arjay, see don't dont for an explanation.

Dear Logic. I’m almost stunned at your comment seeing ‘good sense’ in F.H.s ‘confession’ of his true position (and that of Islam), because what you missed is that the Quran curses YOU personally because you are Jewish. It calls for YOUR destruction, and how you find ‘good sense’ in that is beyond me. Perhaps it was just that F.H. mentioned the ‘One-ness of God’ ..and maybe this appealed to your Jewish understanding of Yahweh, but what (again) you missed was that the reason the Quran condemns ‘you’ is that according to it, you believe ‘Uzair’ is the son of Allah’.

Now..you and I both know that is patently incorrect. Jews don’t believe ANYone is the Son of Allah or Yahweh (except Messianic Jews who recognize Jesus as Messiah).

So, re-capping:
1/ The Quran is ‘wrong’ on a fact of history and Jewish belief.
2/ Even though it is wrong, it declares you, as a Jew (on the basis of this false statement) are worthy for ‘holocaust’ and final solution.

and in this....you find ‘good sense’ ?

yes... you know little about Islam, please_study_it.

THE FINAL SHOWDOWN. F.H. now it is your turn. How long have I labored to arrive at this point, where you finally reveal the true colors of “Islam” where you AGREE that the Quran calls for the destruction of all Christians today. You clearly state for all to see, that the Quran IS in fact calling for Christians who believe Jesus is Son of God to be killed, destroyed, annihilitated.

At last we have it, from the moderates mouth. (Pericles,Brushy, are you reading? do you finally understand why I’ve labored so long on this?)

The ‘good’ Christians and Jews and Sabians.... are in fact MUSLIMS. The BAD ones are those Christians who believe God the Father when He declared “Behold, this is my beloved Son, with Him I am well pleased” at His baptism, then at his Transfiguration “This is my beloved Son, LISTEN to Him”.
So, we need no support from Paul or Peter or anyone, we have it from the Father Himself.

Who....are the haters?

You are, Boaz, you are.

>>Who....are the haters?<<

The sheer amount of time you dedicate to picking holes in the fabric of someone else's religion speaks volumes.

Let us take a sober look, shall we?

If you "loved" a religion other than your own, you would spend your time looking for reasons to make it look good, accentuating the positive aspects and playing down anything that had dubious undertones.

Which is, of course, exactly how you treat Christianity (or Xianity, as goodthief would describe it) - playing up all its hope, faith and charity, and covering up anything unpalatable.

If you "tolerated" a religion other than your own, you would tend to ignore both its shortcomings and its benefits. You would be sufficiently secure in your own religion that you would not feel it necessary either to defend your own position, or attack someone else's.

Which is what we atheists, agnostics and folk who can't give a monkey's do. We look on at you religious folk and wonder whether you will ever get a life of your own.

But you are in another class altogether. And it isn't simply "dislike", or even for that matter "active dislike". You seem to spend every waking moment scouring ancient scripts for more reasons to denigrate and insult Islam, going far beyond the bounds of acceptable discourse, answering calm and moderate reason with hysterical diatribes.

That's hate, mate.

Or it's very close analogue.

Sorry about the apostrophe. It kinda escaped before I could stop it.

But I forgot one question.

You froth:

>>F.H. now it is your turn. How long have I labored to arrive at this point, where you finally reveal the true colors of “Islam” where you AGREE that the Quran calls for the destruction of all Christians today. You clearly state for all to see, that the Quran IS in fact calling for Christians who believe Jesus is Son of God to be killed, destroyed, annihilitated.<<

I must have missed something.

Where exactly did FH say this?

Boazy: "THE FINAL SHOWDOWN"

Hallelujah! Now that we've got that settled, can we look forward to Boazy buggering off into the sunset, having saved the world from the wicked Muslims?

Not likely, methinks - I'm sure we'll be the dubious beneficiaries of a 'resurrection'. Boazy seems a little more OTT today than usual. I wonder if he missed his medication today... or something.

Boaz,

Seems you have a hobby of putting words in everyone's mouth from God all the way down to prophets and now poor old me.

Whey the upper case and exclamation marks?

After reading Pericles and CJ Morgan comments, I thought I click on your OLO comments: 3350 comments all about Islam bashing.
I thought I make a funny statistic by assuming 10 minutes per comment (reading other posters, writing, reviewing and publishing).

33500 minutes is 558.3 hours which translates to 23.2 days of 'dedicated hate' to a faith that is not yours. In fact 'your pure hate' is dedicated to the only religion that honours your prophet.

I am out of words,

Whats with the "Final showdown" thingy? are you still thinking Armageddon and all of that 'loving' material?

Peace,

GoodThief,

Apologies I just read your comment.
I wasn't "informing" you about your faith I am merely explaining my understanding of your faith. Happy to be corrected if you have a different view or opinion you want to share.
I don't judge how close or far other practices are aligned to monotheism. I am simply saying Islamic theology is clear on avoiding any potential grey areas around commandments. Everyone choses what makes sense to them.

Forgive me if my previous comment caused you grief, it was not intentional.

Peace,

FH.... now whos the pot calling the kettle black? "all" my posts are anti Islam? .. come come.. thats' sloppy. You know they aren't, so why say so?

Pericles, F.H. did not say those things, I never said he did, I said ISLAM says them. (Quran/Hadith)

You might not care what the scriptures of a particular faith say, but if I connected what they say to you hip pocket nerve, or the safety of your family, I think you would quickly get with the program.

The fact, which you appear to care little about, is that Islam regards 'your type' (Atheist/Agnostic etc) in a far lower light than even Christians. There might be a shred of hope for the 'good' Christians and Jews and Sabians, (who believe as Islam teaches about God rather than as there own faith does) but for the likes of you? mate.. zero hope. If you were standing in the way of Hezbollah, you they would not think twice about eliminating you. Sheikh Abu Hamza Al Masri (UK) says you can be 'caught, taken to the market and sold as a slave or simply killed'.

You say I 'hate'..what?who? If you can show me where I have abused FH personally I'd be very interested.

Pericles (and CJ) you blokes need to think about how you feel about National Socialism and if there is any need to combat such ideas.
If you found a swastika in your sons cupboard..hmmm methinks you would become quite focused quite quickly.

FH did clearly indicate that 'according to Islam' Christians and Jews are under the curse of Allah as long as they believe so and so is the Son of Allah. Islam is based on this idea. Go, ask around any Muslim you know. 'What does Allah think of those who join 'partners' with Him"? "How should they be treated according to the Quran"? (not according to that particular persons subjective view) I'd love to know their answers.
"No compulsion in Religion" does not negate "May Allah destroy them"

*ouch* 24hours downtime but thats ok...

PERICLES.. a call to consider. You said:

"If you "loved" a religion other than your own, you would spend your time looking for reasons to make it look good, accentuating the positive aspects and playing down anything that had dubious undertones."

I do not 'love' any religion other than from God.. Salvation in Christ. I 'love' in the biblical sense (Agape love, sus it out) the likes of F.H. and Irfy as people,even though he and Irf would argue otherwise.

Pericles.. would you apply your own standard to National Socialism?

After all, aside from its well disciplined, highly organized political structure it only had one major drawback, it considered Jews mainly and other minorities as 'sub human' and deserving of a 'final solution'. Just a small thing you might say.. (of course you won't)and we can 'gloss over it' and minimize it and accentuate the positive aspects.... yeah..right.

Quran 9:30 is the 'key' to defeating enemies of Islam.

-Step1 Dehumanize them, and call divine retribution on them,
-Step2 follow up with your political machine, just as happened to the Jews of the Arabian Peninsula.

F.H. did say what I suggested..HERE

"It seems you want to follow the commandments and the tri-headed god philosophy at the same time. Sorry Islam is similar to judaism on monotheism its like a pregnancy test 0 or 100%."

In other words, he totally supports 9:30 in its cursing and condemnation and destruction of Christians for their belief in Christ's divine Sonship.

Remember..he said the Jews and Sabians believe in the ONEness of God. (So do we Christians but F.H. simply chooses to reject real revelation and goes on about 3 headed gods)

*Sabians and Jews (who believe in the One-ness of God)="GOOD". (they are like Muslims)

*Christians (and Jews who believe "Uzair" is son of Allah)="BAD"(destroy_them)

Its not me calling for any Muslims destruction, I'm simply criticizing their religion. ISLAM is what seeks to dehumanize and Rule Christians and Jews, and as such is fully deserving of the harshest critique.

If people actually want to know what is in the Koran, buy one, a penguin paperback version is available. I read the Qu'oran before travelling overland to Europe. The most noticable thing was how similar to the Bible it is. Ofcourse Judaism, Chrisianity and Islam have common roots. Chrisianity and Islam represent a refreshing of the common roots bringing it more up to date. For instance Islam allowed women to own land before Christianity. I think that all the older religions need refreshing to make them relevent in the post-post-modern era.
As for the alledged friction between Islam and Christainity I think that is down to other cultural differences, Moslem immigrnats tend to come from clan based cultures. Don Beck with his spinal dynamics is doing very good work in Holland. Accepting cultural gaps and mutual respect is the path to peace.

Nice try, Boazy - but the closest ideas I've seen enunciated here to those expounded by the National Socialists (e.g. in the Holocaust, Final Solution etc) are those that you continually spew forth in this forum. Pericles has appositely drawn parallels between your odious ideas and modus operandi and those of Oswald Mosley, which you have obdurately refused to acknowledge. However, like his, your excuses for spreading hatred are both disingenuous and vacuous.

Like Mosley, you are intent on fostering hatred in our society towards people of Semitic ancestry - the only difference is that your rabble-rousing is directed towards Muslims rather than Jews, as Mosley's was.

I think that the quote from which this article drew its title would be absolutely correct, if people like Boaz were typical Aussies. Fortunately, however, they're not - and thank Christ for that! :P

Are Australains 'the worst Muslim haters in the world'? No, the French are;

'As religious strife grows, atheists seize pulpit.

CAEN, France (AP) - With 40 minutes to go before show time, the 500-seat Alexis de Tocqueville auditorium was already packed. A fan set up a video camera in the front row. A sound engineer checked the microphones.

The star: Michel Onfray, celebrity philosopher and France’s high priest of militant atheism...

Mr. Onfray, 48 years old and author of 32 books, stands in the vanguard of a curious and increasingly potent phenomenon in Europe: zealous disbelief in God.

Passive indifference to faith has left Europe’s churches mostly empty. But debate over religion is more intense and strident than it has been in many decades. Religion is re-emerging as a big issue in part because of anxiety over Europe’s growing and restive Muslim populations and a fear that faith is reasserting itself in politics and public policy. That is all adding up to a growing momentum for a combative brand of atheism, one that confronts rather than merely ignores religion....

Mr. Onfray argues that atheism faces a “final battle” against “theological hocus-pocus” and must rally its troops. “We can no longer tolerate neutrality and benevolence,” he writes in “Traite d’atheologie,” or Atheist Manifesto, a best seller in France, Italy and Spain. “The turbulent time we live in suggests that change is at hand and the time has come for a new order.”

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/17971/atheism

Don't worry Mr Boaz and other Christians, we atheists are not really worried about contemporary Christianity which behaves itself for the most part.

Instead, we know a dangerous opponent when we see one and have our sights firmly set on a totalitarian and anti-human ideology called Islam. Quite frankly, Christianity is no match for Islam and is easily outgunned by its monotheistic cousin. However, secular humanism founded on science and rationalism is an opponent that Islam dislikes and cannot defeat.

The Enlightenment has just lit up again!

I'm going to go against the trend here, and agree with my old mate BOAZ_David (to an extent). Don't know whether it is the fault of the Quran or its interpreters, but have a look here http://www.islamonline.com/cgi-bin/news_service/fatwah_story.asp?service_id=449 This Fatwah finds one pro-Jewish quote in the Quran and twenty anti-Jewish ones. It concludes, in part, that the Jews "have revolted against the Divine ordinances, distorted what has been revealed to them and invented new teachings..." More of the same may be found here http://www.submission.org/jews/ These look like quite legit Islamic sites to me, (IslamOnline is backed by AlJazeera) and contain all manner of interesting Quranic interpretation (Islamic Creationism anyone?). I'm not going to read the Quran to explore this issue, I'll let the believers argue this out. Ultimately, it seems not to matter what the book says, the interpretation is all.

On the other hand, I suspect that a fundamentalist reading of many religious texts could be used to justify intolerance and hatred of non-believers. My view is that a secular state is our great protection, so that we may think and practice as we wish (subject of course to the rights of others). Many people in Turkey have rallied in support of their secular state http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6598561,00.html I don't understand the intricacies of Turkish politics, but if I were Turkish I suspect I'd be marching with them.

Hey Gang, Chances are you've read Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion". At the start of ch 2, he says -

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic-cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully". This is typical of his tone: he’s not taking prisoners.

He's a brilliant man and a magnificent writer. On the other hand, he's extremely angry. He may not INTEND to hurt people who are attached to the God of the Old Testament - Jews and Christians (and, I expect, Muslims), but he's certainly prepared to risk it. He's that angry. All that said, I’d be taking a slight leap if I accused him of hating theists. He might, but he might not.

Sam Harris, who wrote "The End of Faith" and "Letter to a Christian Nation" is another feisty atheist. He admits he is strident, and explains it as impatience with the fate of the world being largely in the hands of people who run their lives in accordance with the wishes of someone who isn’t there. Given his atheism, he’s understandably in a panic. But, I don’t think he hates.

The second reason I mention these characters, Pericles, is to make the point that atheists are not neutral observers and are not always composed and civil. I can also imagine a passionate agnostic writing in a similar tone against both theists and atheists - because "they're both so sure they're right". After all, the agnostic cops it from both sides. Welcome to the fray!

Can we clear the air a bit here? It would appear that the Q'uran does have some bits that appear anti Christian and anti Jewish and Mahommet seems to have been involved in actions against Jews. But that is all history and all religions evolve. Christianity has some nasty skeletons in its cupboard. Judaism is too small to have done much harm, but atheists of the Communist variety have certainly done their share of evil as did the Nazis.

Could the Muslims amongst us give us some indication of their many views, only the extremists seem to get any publicity? The Muslims I see around me are all rather nice.

Logic, no one is saying that Muslims aren't nice. Muslims are normal average people that just want to get on with their lives.

However, we need to draw the distinction betweem the individual Muslim and Islam the ideology.

What is clear is that Muslims are the first victims of Islam in the same way that Germans were the victims of fascism in the 1940's. Germans were nice people but their ruling ideology wasn't. We could say the same for Communism at it's zenith in the 1950's. That is, Russian's and Chinese were nice people but the ideologues who governed and brainwashed them through totalitarianism were most definitely not.

It is the duty of any caring Secular Humanist to call Islamic, Fascist or Cummunist ideology to account for the sake of their victims. This is the only honourable thing to do.

Boaz,

You quoted

“FH did clearly indicate that 'according to Islam' Christians and Jews etc…”.

Nope,
1. Judaism is clear monotheists according to Islam: the Quran states the mosaic law is the only law sent and hence we, muslims follow it as well. So please ‘unbundle’ Christianity and Judaism for the sake of this conversation.
2. the Quran states that people of the book (ie Christians Jews, Sabeans, etc..) those who do good and have good faith have no fear on judgement day etc.
3. The criticism for “some” Jewish people in the Quran is for those who either manipulated the commandments or rejects his prophets (including Jesus).
4. While the Quran honours Jesus as a prophet and his followers across 33 verses, the criticism is for those who exaggerate Jesus’ identity to be exact equal to God. Again you don’t need Islam to tell you that, you can re-read the OT.

Boaz, according to your teachings those who do not believe in Jesus Trinity, baptism, etc..are cursed and will not go to heaven. Similar meanings exist in the Jewish scripture. Christianity theological position on Islam that its a hoax and Mohamed (pbuh) is insane.
Do you see me running around asking you for a special fatwa to alter your scripture? No. Because I believe in the contents of my faith and couldn’t care less how others describe it. You believe your faith is right then you should be not care how others see it. Do you have a favourite suit or tie? Do you care how people look when you wear it?

ER/ Logic,

There is a big thick line between Islam and Militant Islamism.
There confustion can be by ignorance of the faith or intentional.

Back on topic:
After a month of travelling overseas, I think the title of the article is so unfair to beautiful Australia. I actually believe that Australian Muslims are the best treated that most if not all of European and western countries.

Peace,

Fellow Human, I have a selfish interest in point 4 of your last post. I don't mind the Qur'an consigning me to Hell for believing that Jesus is the Son of God and not just a prophet. Like you, I accept my own scriptures, and have limited interest in scriptures which contradict what I believe.

What does concern me is that some Muslims seem to have taken it upon themselves not just to remind me that I'm Hell-bound, but to take active steps to hasten my emigration there by killing me.

This is what is scary, and I wish I could get a handle on the numbers.

Goodthief,

Islamic teachings walked the talk over the last 14 centuries: Muslims, Christians and Jews lived in peace since the dawn of Islam. Militant Islam appeared in the last century and is targeting mainly other Muslims. 99% of victims of militant Islam are, in fact Muslims.

I regret how you feel but neither myself or my faith are responsible for your concerns. I can only answer your questions and recommend you get enough understanding to resolve your fears. the Sydney Morning herald starterd a new Islamic Q&A blogspot moderated by Dr zacharias Matthews. you can visit it to understand more.

Peace,

Hello Fellow_Human,
It is a while since you and I exchanged views and i want to let you know that I, for one, appreciate the comment you made in a post above.

you said--"After a month of traveling overseas, I think the tittle of the article is so unfair to beautiful Australia. I actually believe that Austrsalian muslims are the best treated than most if not all of European and western countries"

It is good to find someone not knocking Aus. I hope that the followers of other religions feel the same.

We have welcomed people from most countries in the world and the majority have settled in well. It is disappointing that some groups have not and seem to have contempt for us and our society. It is also regrettable that the conduct of these groups seems to affect the reputations of muslims in general.

I hope your unprovoked comment, as above, gets the attention it deserves. Thank you.

'There is a big thick line between Islam and Militant Islamism.'

Interesting point fellow_human. But is there such a thing as militant Buddhism or militant Janism? Some religions have an inate bias toward extremism and militacy, and some don't.

Also, despite their dwindling numbers Christians and people from other religions still make up a significamt minority in the Middle East and Indonesia. However, from what I can gather non-Muslims have not yet taken part in suicide bombing or terrorism - despite the fact that they live under exactly the same circumstances as Muslims.

Obviously, there is something fundamentally flawed about the religion of Islam when its governing classes can so easily manipulate and abuse the innocents under their control. I think that it has something to do with the Islamic ethos of 'submission' being mixed with theocratic totalitarianism.

By the way fellow_human, are you a Sufi? You sound like a Sufi.

Fellow Human: Yes, I understand you are not in a position to console me. My point, which was not clear, was a different one. People are very clumsy with their powerful emotions. If we don’t manage them, they morph and we extrapolate. So, fear becomes anger, even hate, fairly easily. And, while our anger is against Islam and some Muslims, it’s "natural" (though wrong) to direct it towards Muslims generally. I have earlier (perhaps on a related string) said that fear management is something the non-Muslim population has to get into: reduce the fear by getting informed; and then, despite the fear, behave rationally and honourably.

My interest in “the numbers” relates to the first strategy (getting informed). The event that alarmed me more that 9/11 was the global destructive lethal tantrum over the Danish cartoons. Perhaps it was all orchestrated by extremists, but it concerned me to see so many seemingly ordinary Muslims stirred up into violence so easily.

Johnj and TR: I missed your earlier posts because I was writing as you were posting. Johnj, I agree with you: it’s the interpretation (and, really, the behaviour) that matters, and it’s only a secular state that is in a position to insist on peaceful behaviour regardless of what one’s Book says.

TR: I’m very happy for atheists to be more assertive than they have been. We theists have been on a roll for a long time, and even those of us who do not wish to abuse power or privilege might be doing so, and a wake-up call is a good idea. However, a couple of things in your post alarm me: the expression “zealous disbelief in God” and Michel Onfray’s “change is at hand and THE TIME HAS COME FOR A NEW ORDER”. Can you unpack that new order for me, please: it sounds potentially dangerous.

F.H. agree with your comment about the title being unfair to Australia. *tick* :)

but POINT 4 ooooh yes.. as goodthief went straight to it, I also did, without seeing his post.

Point_4 is exactly why I have made such a song and dance about Quran 9:30 it clearly condemns ME personally and Goodthief and all bible believing Christians and calls for our destruction.

It is because Christians believe God the Father when he declared to the crowd at Jesus Baptism "Behold, my beloved Son, with Him I am well pleased" that the Quran calls for our destruction.
You have clearly confirmed this by suggesting the only 'good' Christian is a "muslim" one. The OT supports Christ as Son of God.
(Isaiah 9:6 among others)

There is no way out of this. You have 2 choices....
1/ Claim this declaration was a later 'Christian' insertion.
2/ Deny and disbelieve it no matter where it came from.

Given that the Lord Jesus:
-Healed the sick, gave sight to those born blind, strength to the paralyzed made the deaf and mute hear and speak.
-Calmed storms, walked on water, turned water into wine.
-Raised the dead,
-Rose from the dead.
-Met Paul and transformed him from marauding murderer to peaceful proclaimer.

I'd be inclined to believe that declaration. (not to mention the one on the mount of trasnfiguration)

Now.. when I looked into the pagan Muslim faces of the 13 men at the committal hearing in Melbournes County court, I have to say my subjective impression was not that they were overflowing with tolerance and love towards infidels. Failure to stand up for the Magistrate, is not a good look.

If such people even withOUT being convicted have such contempt for our legal system, how much more might they have if they actually had power?

I believe the most serious weakness of our system is that it does not address the foundation beliefs of extremists, and seek to rectify them.
So, I don't mind having a dabble here in a public forum.

In todays SMH there are several articles about muslims. In the lead article Waleed Aly and Ahmed Kilani both claim muslims are victims of media bias. Should the media not report the gang rapes or gang bashings? Various terrorist attacks from around the world, the cause of the Cronulla riot and the revenge attacks? Or the outragous comments of Sheik Hilali and Sheik Faiz Mahommed? Maybe not report on the trouble caused by the Danish cartoons?

What Muslim leaders should really do is condemn outright, without any qualifacation, any terrorist attack and secondly lay the blame for local problems right where it should be, with the Leb muslims. Most, if not all, local problems has been caused by the actions of the Leb muslims. We all need to know this and it is unfair that other muslims should share the blame.

Until the muslim leaders face this, poor reputation will follow muslims in general.

What does a "pagan Muslim face" look like? How does it differ from a rabid Christian face?

Hi Banjo,

Yes Australia is the best Muslim-friendly country and it flies right in the eye of anyone who says differently. I can write a full article on OLO about it. Agree with your comment re freedom of the media except for Sheikh-Hilaly: he seems to ‘sell well’ to old lebs and the Aussie media.

TR,

There is a difference between a faith and how is taught-practised.
My view is simple: religion is inherently neutral spiritual medium and acts like a mirror: Hitler and mother Theresa saw different things in the very same religion. History shows atrocities committed in the name of religion and non-religion everywhere in the world. Answering your question: I am just a Muslim. I like Sufism spirituality but extreme Sufism is passive and confusing.

Goodthief,

I think your approach to conquering fear is good. A couple of comments if I may:
Using the media coverage of Danish cartoons is inconclusive. If you lived in this part of the world you will find out the media is as manipulative as a good ‘balanced and fair’ western media.

Your view is correct: fear leads to hat which leads to violence. It’s the message I am trying to convey to Boaz for months. I think fear is a personal choice and the only way to conquer it is to reach out and interact and learn about what you fear. My personal summary of living and travelling across east and west is this: all humans are looking for the same things: a job, good living, healthy family and healthy social life.

Boaz,

You need a serious ‘rewiring-job’ to cover your theological arrogance. The point is we should not be concerned with approving each other religious contents. Muslims won’t change scriptures for your feelings and we are not asking you to recognise our prophet or faith to respect our feelings. Its sterile. You don’t believe in my faith and I don’t believe in yours BUT I accept you as is and will defend to death your right to practice your faith. Will you be able to do the same?
Peace,

'However, a couple of things in your post alarm me: the expression “zealous disbelief in God” and Michel Onfray’s “change is at hand and THE TIME HAS COME FOR A NEW ORDER”.'

Goodtheif, this quote from Michel Onfray is best seen in the context of France and Western Europe where Islam is fraying European cultural identity. Europeans now realise that the assertions of Muslims cannot be combated by traditional Christian theology which is ill equiped to confront fundamentalist Islam.

Hence, the term 'NEW ORDER' means that atheism replaces Christianity as the intellectual tool of choice for decontructing Islam. Of course, atheism will also hold Christianity to account but its main aim will be to dismantle fundamentalist Islam.

French intellectuals therefore aim to use any public platform to lampoon Islamist theological and sociological claims. For example, Michel Onfray himself 'preaches' from Caen University with good media coverage. Other secular groups and prominent atheists have also hit the print media hard.

Now, with all that in mind I will simply say to Boaz and Fellow_Human that both your religions are founded on pure fantasy.

Corpses do not spring to life on the third day. This is pure nonsense and goes against every single rational, medical and scientific principle that has ever been elucidated. Jumbled historical accounts written by four unknown authors are no excuse for being intellectually stupid.

The Koran did not come down from heaven (where ever that is) via the angel Gabriel because there are no such things as angels. There is no hard evidence that angels exist, or ever have existed. Angels are no more likely than unicorns or fairies and to believe in the existence of angels is intellectually stupid. The Koran was written by human authors in exactly the same as any other book. There is absolutely nothing miraculous about it.

Both Boaz and Fellow_Human are wrong to believe that virgins can get pregnant. This is a medical impossibility. Again, trusting in the hearsay of dodgy historical documents is no excuse for being intellectually stupid.

TR,

True there is no physical evidence on religions, but then there is no physical evidence on random creation ie stars, planets and solar system. Are you saying that I can give you 4 gallons of water, a kg of calcium, a pin head of iron and you can create a walking talking human being with complex nervous and emotional system?

There is, at least, physical evidence on a single consciousness that connect all living creatures to itself and to each other. One life turning experience for me 16 years ago when I was in the field of medical research: an animal in a lab in Switzerland gets distressed brain signal when any of its young in two other labs (one in the US and the other in the philippines)dies in the animal testing process. The young animal in Asia recorded the same distress when the brother died in the US lab. I won't elaborate for not to bore the audience but its extreme arrogance to say 'because its not in my line of sight I can't see it or appreciate it'.

Peace,

Ich bin ein bin liner.

TR, Your language about your New Order is worrying me. I don’t like change that replaces one danger with another. I suppose it depends on what you mean by “deconstructing” and “holding to account”. For example, do you mean “seize power and ban religion on pain of death”? Communism did that and it wasn’t pretty.

I agree that fundamentalist Islam is extremely disruptive and dangerous, and that an aggressive response has to be considered. However, a response that is too blunt will damage the innocent. If atheism became the prevailing thought, it would not only deconstruct extremist Islam, but all of Islam, along with all of Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism etc. Atheism is a blunt instrument.

The merits of atheism. First of all, I agree with your assessment of Boaz and Fellow Human: they are both intellectually stupid :) I am, too. However, it is not enough for you to say so. As soon as you announce yourself as an atheist, we already know you don’t believe in God, or heaven or angels, and that you regard our belief in God etc as a fantasy. How could you say otherwise? However, you have not said anything to shake my belief.

There is nothing irrational about believing in God unless you insist on empirical proof before you make are prepared to recognise or believe something. Like you, I believe my eyes, but insisting on proof imposes an unnecessary limitation on your thinking. This limitation is self-imposed.

FH,

Wait a minute... Are you saying an animal in Switzerland got "distressed" when it's offsprings died overseas (in a laboratory in US and philippines) ??

Any reference on the internet?

A point is that there are an enormous number of Muslims. Because of these numbers there would be at any time several who misbehaved. We then generalize the actions of a small percentage as typical of the majority.

We have developed the habit of stereotyping, as was once done with Jews.

I am proud to hear fellow human's claim that Australia is the least biased of countries he has seen, but we can still do better.

Logic,

How good is your logic ??

Supposing there is an enormous number of Islamic States in this world. Now let me apply your above logic two ways:

(A)... Most Islamic States are Secular & Democratic. But because of these large numbers there are always several who "misbehave" (by becoming Undemocratic).

(B)... Most Islamic States are Undemocratic. But because of these large numbers there will always be several who successfully remain Secular and Democratic.

Do you think:

1. (A) is always true;
2. (B) is always true;
3. Both are true; or
4. Both are false ?

Perhaps not surprisingly, the fact that Jewish people had experienced trauma due to stereotyping caused many Jews to jump at the slightest stereotyping.

But what is true/false must not be influenced by emotions in an illogical way.

Fellow_Human, if you wish to believe in 'Intelligent Design' then that's fine by me. However, monotheists seem to arrogantly assume that because the Universe is 'Intelligently Designed' religious people HAVE to choose Judaism, Christianity or Islam. This is sheer nonsense. For example, Deists (eg. Thomas Jefferson) have believed in God for centuries but have also appreciated that the Bible and the Koran are flawed historical texts full of contradictions. Deists also reject the Bible and the Koran because they also rightly assume that these 'revealed' texts encourage violence, bigotry and tribalism.

To put it simply - belief in God ('Intelligent Designer') does not necessitate a belief in Judaism, Christianity or Islam.

Goodthief, I thought that I had made it quite clear that the problem of monotheism cannot be overcome with radical politics. Rather, I am promoting well guided public education via the education system (primary to tertiary) and mass media (print and electronic). I believe that the education system and the mass media has failed society dismally by failing to reinforce the intrinsic benefits of science, naturalism, rationalism and sceptical thinking.

It is about time that society deliberately promoted the idea that supernaturalism is a backward and harmful way of thinking.

Thanks TR,

I thought Science was already held in high esteem. Perhaps I was mistaken. Anyhow, I agree that its achievements, both actual and potential, should be known.

I also agree that everyone needs to be taught to think independently and critically. This incluldes theists like me, but it also includes atheists like you. (It's one of the reasons we're here in this Forum, isn't it?)

You have not responded to the other things I said about atheism. You are yet to establish that atheism is true, or at least provide some reason for recommending it. Instead, you seem to be just assuming it's true, and critiquing the views of people like me on the basis of that assumption.

You think we should all be empiricists, but why? It seems so limiting to me, so why would I subscribe to it?

Pax,

GZ Tan

There is a flaw in your argument. There are over 1 billion Muslims, but perhaps 70 Muslim states. 1 billion is a huge number 70 is not. A low probability is much more likely to occur with a large sample than with a small.

TR

I think that "Intelligent Design" is a red herring. I am not a monotheist but it is possible that a deity could have thought out natural selection as a way of creation, knowing its result? After all, what happened before the big bang? How did the collection of energy get there in the first place? Why did atomic particles exist and why did they obey the laws of physics?

The religious texts and the statements about heaven and hell and a relationship with a deity are a separate issue and in all probability cannot be tested with scientific method, they are a matter of philosophy. Moses, Jesus, Mahomet and Buddha could all be considered philosophers like Aquinas and Spinoza. The fanciful aspects of their stories could be myths woven around them. That does not negate the values they preached. That is why I am an agnostic with leanings to Theism and cannot dismiss in theIslam the way some posts are doing.

And thanks to everyone for their posts. This is getting interesting. I am learning as well as developing my ideas with all of you people.

'I thought Science was already held in high esteem. Perhaps I was mistaken.'

Goodthief, the scientific method is little understood by the public. The fact that the Theory of Evolution is so poorly received by the general public is a sad testament to this. The assault on science by the 'Intelligent Design' movement in the US is enough to make you weep.

Unfortunately people for reasons best known to themselves still believe in angels, demons, jinn, spirits, ghosts, UFO's, ESP, alien visitations, astrology, horoscopes, tarot cards, astral projection and a whole host of other similar pseudo-science and bunkum. No, we do not yet live in an age of scientific rationalism.

'You have not responded to the other things I said about atheism. You are yet to establish that atheism is true, or at least provide some reason for recommending it.'

Goodthief, I am not agianst the idea of God as described by Albert Einstein or Paul Davies. Indeed, the Universe could be teleological with intelligent life being the natural outcome of the Big Bang. What I am totally against is the idea that the Torah, Bible or the Koran are reliable and factual books that are a good basis for ultimate truth and morality. All three texts can be easily demonstrated as being untruthful. That is, Jesus the corpse did not really rise from the dead (this is impossible) and Mohammed did not recieve the Koran from an angel (there are no such things as angels). What's more, it can also be easily shown that all three texts encourage violence, sexism, bigotry and tribalism. The empirical evidence for this is overwhelming.

Once the horrible dogmas of monotheism are rejected the answers to human existence become existential. That is, each person creates their own meaning and happiness with the general purpose of making society the best it can be. Personally, I hope that my local community is a nicer place for having me in it (?) I believe that there is no room for shallow materialism or nilhism in the atheistic world view.

Logic,

Actually it's not whether there are only 70 Muslim states or 1 billion Muslim States that matters. It is the logic itself.

Your "1-billion-Muslims" logic is such a well-worn cliche that I was surprised it came from you.
As much as I was surprised a statement of yours implied you only recently figured out FH is a Muslim (1 May 2007 "Topic: Palestinians and Jews stand united").

Anyway, sticking to the same logic, given that there are over 1 billion Muslims, and because of these large numbers, are there always a few Muslims that do not believe in a prophet Muhammad ??

I suggest such a cliche of a logic is frauded if not correctly applied.

No one, not even me, doubts that extremists Islamists tend to be a minority. But Islam is an ideology that is proven to drive out freedom and democracy, irregardless of whether 7 Islamic states or 700 Islamic states.

A secular democratic Islam state can only be an exception rather than the rule. Such an exceptional Islam state will always struggle to remain secular and democratic.

If Muslims world population is small, always remain small and never increase the way they do, do we even worry about a few extremists?

Due to traumatic experience of Jews, do you therefore empathise with any group that is victims of stereotyping? I suppose this is a reasonable position to assume.

But I suggest we take exception with Islam. Perhaps stereotyping is what (typically prejudicial) human beings need, partly as an "automatic alert-mechanism" against a very deceptive, dangerous and organised religion.

TR,

I agree with your point there are similar arrogance amongst followers of faith as much in the non-religion/ agnostic group. I don't belong to any club that belives they know it all either through magic recipe books of the future or others. I think its a good practice to recognise that all what we know is a drop in the ocean and we still have a long way to go.

GZ Tan,

Research done in this field is considered sensitive intellectual property which medical and pharmaceuticals companies will not make public.
If the subject is of interest visit the library of www.paranormal.com or just Google “medical research on animal telepathy”. When I was working in this field, it was a known fact that animals communicate and exchange emotions remotely regardless of distance. The puzzling question was the ‘how’.

TR: Good post, thank you.

I think deism would be the ideal world-view. It allows one to enjoy the splendour and mystery of believing in God – so much more interesting than living locked away in the empiricist box – but without the inconvenience of having to wrestle with God’s opinions and preferences.

Are you a deist? Whether you are or not, do you happen to know how deists arrive at an ethic? For example, do you know how a deist perceives human beings? What is it about them that makes them worth loving and respecting? What makes them special – and not just that, but equally special? I don’t think evolution on its own gives me a reason to love my neighbour. And the God of deism hasn’t done anything more than program evolution, has he?

I realise we are left to work it out for ourselves – existentialist style – but I don’t see how that will result in anything reliable or durable. You will never get consensus on anything, and the rule of the majority will inevitably result in oppression.

You and I may be at the end now, because I can only say I disagree with deism. But, I’ll say something about why. I believe the deity who established everything has personality and is, shall we say, a people person and not a geek. The God of deism is simply a mechanic, or programmer. I believe God is love. This doesn’t mean I’m right, I’m just describing the difference (in a biased way, perhaps). Also, the God of deism appears to have programmed several glitches into the universe, wouldn’t you say? He’s stuck with them, I suppose?

By the way, I didn’t fail to notice your personal ethos regarding your local community, and the modest way you expressed it. Having just praised you for that, it’s awkward to say that I operate along similar lines, but I do. I think this is the strength of a secular democracy – it encourages people to do this even though they have vastly different reasons.

Pax,

Sorry if we are a bit paranoid. We have had to deal with a christian run government since day one and that's bad enough. Last thing we need is to be told what to do by another religion.

The sooner the world can move on from this ancient culture the better. Most religions are against public affection including Muslims but are quite happy to allow public hatred which is messed up in itself.

And the need for an afterlife makes me laugh because if you asked every religious person (Try this out on your friends) "Where do you go when you die" they would describe only Earth like places.

The thing that really makes me paranoid is the fact that Muslim women have to cover themselves so the Muslim men are not tempted to rape them. I feel for Muslim women with men like this around.

Aussies love there women and love there way of life and that is why we don't want people imposing themselves on us with beliefs that are so hateful to the point of disturbing.

Beliefs are good, but because these are our own personal theory's they should not impose to the point of hatred and unfortunately war and governments will decide where we go in the future with this legacy from ancient times. All I can do is protect my family from those uneducated souls.

'You and I may be at the end now, because I can only say I disagree with deism. But, I’ll say something about why. I believe the deity who established everything has personality and is, shall we say, a people person and not a geek. The God of deism is simply a mechanic, or programmer. I believe God is love.'

Where on the earth do you get the idea that 'God is love'? Where is your evidence for that Goodthief? Surely not from monotheism. The Jews of the Torah/Old Testament regularly performed acts of brutality and ethnic cleansing under the happy guidance of a parochial and violent God called Yahweh. The jealous God of the Koran was happy for Muhammad to hack off the heads of several hundred Jewish (Banu Qurayzah) POW and sell their wives into slavery after the 'Battle of the Trench'.

Then we have the ridiculous doctrine of hell whereby God allows the painful suffering of non-Christians or non-Muslims for all eternity. This seems hardly fair given that our lives are measured in mere decades.

Then there is the 'Problem of Pain' which has never been resolved by theologians despite centuries of trying. For example, only a sadistic and callous God would give congenital blindness to an innocent baby. No hands-on omnipotent God of love would stoop so low as to allow such an aweful eventuality.

Sorry Goodthief, but all the evidence points to the fact that there is no such thing as a personal God of love who regularly intervenes in the lives of people. The available evidence implies that God is either impersonal, or if he is not, then a cruel sadist

TR, Difficult points. I’ll attempt a response.

“God is love”. I believe creation (esp of humans) was an act of love. I believe banishment to the present world from Eden (not literally) was an act of mercy. I believe the Old Testament is a story of God’s partisan love for his own people – including his readiness to kill for them. (Cold comfort for everyone else, I realise.) Finally, and most significant (to a Christian), when all else failed to reconcile with humanity, God sent his Son to take the fall for us – so that our return to him would not be blocked by guilt and justice. Wild stuff, but love.

And Jesus’ own life was, from wall to wall, characterised by merciful love – love that sought and found people at the margins of Jewish society (women, poor people, lepers, foreigners, Romans, collaborators with the Romans etc). The fiercely loyal loving relationship previously preserved for the Jews becomes available for everyone – so, since the New Testament, there is no question of God “going in to bat” in the same way as he did for the Jews earlier.

You may not call this evidence, but these are my reasons.

Hell. I doubt that there are many people there because God has been at such pains to restore us to a happy, close, tranquil and permanent relationship with him.

Pain. Yes, it’s a heart-rending planet, and it is tempting to angrily reject the idea of a loving God, or to direct the anger towards God himself. Christians too are often angry or puzzled, but they also believe what I wrote above. Pain is a problem, but it needn’t result in disbelief. Besides -
- I think God grieves more than we do.
- Do you think we deserve a better planet?

You owe me two items of information:
1) Are you deist? I asked you earlier. The deist God is not loving? Just a geek as I suggested?
2) How do you develop an ethic? That is, an ethic that you can recommend to others.

Pax

'You owe me two items of information:
1) Are you deist? I asked you earlier. The deist God is not loving? Just a geek as I suggested?
2) How do you develop an ethic? That is, an ethic that you can recommend to others.'

Hi goodthief,

1) No, I am currently an atheist - although I thought about Deism for some time and could easliy switch to that ethos if compelled. It's the really bad history of the monotheistic texts that I find off putting, not the idea of God itself.

2)Humans are by nature moral. After several million years of human evolution ethical behaviour has been encoded in our genes because it has helped our species to survive and adapt to the environment. It is imprinted in the same way that other mammalian behaviours are imprinted. However, because of our extra intelligence we have been able to take our inate ethical behaviour to higher levels. The same sort of rationale also applies for the problem of human 'evil'.

This short piece underscores the biological origins of human ethical/altruistic behaviour;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4766490.stm

Therefore, if you want to know how to 'develop' ethical behaviour then I recommend that you study human biology and evolutionary psychology.

Ridley seems typical of the Muslims who open their mouths to spew nonsense and hate, and then claim "taken out of context" or "mistranslated" as some form of defence. Ridley is a native English-speaker, so her words are clear enough. She has said enough in the past to have been banned herself, after all, we have banned Holocaust deniers.

For me, I'm happy for creatures like her to open their mouths. They let the cat out of the bag some time ago. "Religion of peace" indeed. Ridley may be a pathetic example of Stockholm Syndrome, but she speaks plainly of Muslims' attitudes, opinions and desires.

Ridley looked a sight in her tailor-made mediaeval camping tent. Lucky she didn't come across Hilaly or he'd have had something to say about her rather obvious tent-poles.

Boaz,
You are a very smart person, do you think religion teaches a farther the son and Holy Spirit, the trinity all are one. I find that very hard to belive, that some one as beautiful as Jesus (peace be upon him) would teach such blasphemy. If it was the other way around you would probably say its teaching incest. The Quran and its quote yes buddy each to his own.
Yes profits come and people treat them like gods and worship them. The profit (peace be upon him) taught us to see him as a man with a message. You are a person that comes across as trying to push or prove things you don’t understand. Mate god created us to be who we are love, hate, wrong, right. May god bless you and your family.
The Quran teaches don’t argue with your Jewish or Christian brothers and sisters about religion, and follow all three books. Boaz kill this hatred it’s no good
I am not even going to go into any more of this because it’s like a disease one must respect each others beliefs.
Sunday morning watch the Christian programs and see the hatred being spread
We live in Australia we are a peaceful country why are we letting hatred ruin our beautiful nation.
i am sorry for any disrespect as this may be offensive to some people

Dear Kooree... I don't sense any hate in your post, as you should not be seeing any in mine. Its about fact and issues and discussing them.

Being passionate about something does not automatically attach 'hate' to it.

The 'Trinity' seems to be your primary justification for rejecting Christ as He is portrayed in Scripture. We can take this up later,
but for now, I'll try to condense my concerns into something less cumbersome.

THE PROBLEM

If I mention the following: (done by Mohammad)

-Mass executions (murder to me) of Banu Qurazya Jews.
-Mutilation of prisoners worse than Abu Graib.(Camel thieves)
-Killing of a man then taking his beautiful wife and having intercourse with her.(Saffiya)
-Assasination (murder) of people due to their political and poetic inclinations (Ka'ab bin al Ashraf)

How do you react? I'm guessing, that if you know of these things, you would say "They were justified" ..or..if you don't know of them, you may goto an Imam or Sheikh and still come away with the same idea.

NOW.... we come to the difficult part. "IF" you can feel comfortable with such things as legitimate expressions of your prophet Mohammad, and your religion Islam, it means you are comfortable with such things NOW..today, and you might even be my neighbour.

THEN..I read that the Quran calls for my (and every Jews) destruction based on my core beliefs, (9.30) not because of some act of aggression or harm I've done to any Muslim...... are u getting it yet?

THIS is the point where you have to say either.

a) Such destruction is the clear will of Allah, and I am a follower of Allah therefore I must obey Allahs will.
OR
b) These are the words of Mohammad only, and he simply made them up for his political and military convenience.

You doubt me ? see THIS. read the profile of this ex Muslim and what happened to her cousins.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=nerdzrule

So,...KOOREE continued.

If you believe those things are 'ok' as part of your religion, then don't you understand how non Muslims might take exception to the idea of such a 'value system' taking root in Australia and actually growing?

Personally, I cannot see how you can accept 'Mohammad' as a prophet of God, yet reject his murder, lust and cruelty, so if you DO accept him as from God, you are left with the sad posiiton of having to INCORPORATE those things into your own faith, and value system.

I take the other approach, I

a) Reject him totally as being from God.
b) Embrace Christ as my Lord and Saviour.
c) Reject totally the idea that believing Christ Jesus is the Son of God is any kind of 'blasphemy'.

I do so, because your assessement of such a claim as 'blasphemy' is based on information which originated from Mohammad, who's character I have already demonstrated to be totally flawed and blemished, and that to accept him as a prophet requires you to justify mass murder, rape and torture at any time that it suits the interests of the Islamic state.

So, now you might understand why I attack Mohammad, and also, why he himself went to great lengths to STOP such criticisms of himself as he knew that such would undermine his political strength and power.

Fortunately for me, I am not a Muslim, nor do I live in a Muslim state, and the State I do live in, allows me to criticize, or even draw cartoons of Mohammad should I wish to do so. (or, to draw cartoons of our prime minister, as this forum shows)

Kooree, if I said "All Muslims should be rounded up, herded off to Baxter or Woomera, and gassed" you would have grounds to describe me as a 'Muslim hater'. (Have I made such a call?)
Your holy book DOES EXACTLY THAT but not in the same words, about me.
but it is much worse, it ascribes DIVINE AUTHORITY to such a call.

I leave you with the question. "Where"....is the hate?

Good thief,
“God sent his Son to take the fall for us”
This is a very important point -too often glossed over.
We are told this was a great & generous act & we should be eternally grateful; etc etc.

Except that the being which ‘gave’ also set the penalty.
Tell me, WHO was it that required a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin?

Dear Horus, don't for a moment think that 'thinking' Christians have not asked that same question.

Here are some tidbits.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=25&chapter=12&version=31
Verse 9 to end but only makes real sense by reading the whole book first.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&version=31
Verse 14 to 21

Paul struggled with the 'big' questions also. But he had this problem, he had executed people..taken their lives, even women, and hounded and hunted the Christians with a goal of extinguishing them.
Then, on the road to Damascus..... he met some one and his thinking all changed.

Finallly

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&version=31

blessings/cheers
BD

Horus, Yes, the Father who sent the Son is the God who set the penalty. It is a true point that people like me have to address.

I believe that, deep in our hearts, each of us is basically a smart-ass. I mean “ruthlessly self-centred”. At that level, each of us has “done an Adam & Eve” to God. It is a profound betrayal.

We constantly do what we know is wrong. We pretend we don’t. We make excuses. We adopt more convenient personal morals in an attempt to avoid the problem. We apologise, and do it again. It’s got to be a major drag from God’s point-of-view. (I know that we also do wonderful things.)

I believe God is within His rights to say, “Okay, you don’t like life with me, you can have life without me”, and to spit us from creation. Instead, he gives us this magnificent planet, and then gnaws on His knuckles while we screw it up. He gives us magnificent human beings to live with, and watches us screw them up as well. He gives us guidance, sends messengers to remind us, but nothing seems to work. But He hangs in there – devoted, smitten even, in for the long tortuous haul.

Mercy is not fairy-floss. It lives in a hard place. It is relief from justice. If God had less integrity, and took Himself and us less seriously, He might just “not worry about it”. As it is, He does worry about it. Wants us to take things, and Him, seriously and to have integrity. So, we find ourselves in the dock, in the world of justice.

Whatever happens to us, we must not get our just deserts, that would be a disaster! God found a way to observe justice, but not at our expense. He spared Abraham the pain of killing Isaac (and spared Isaac a perverse death). The strangeness of that episode dissipates when you compare it with what God was prepared to do to His own Son (with the Son’s willing consent) and, love being love, to Himself.

Pax,

Dear Boaz
You get me at good points being I belive in all three religions as Islam teaches,
It also teaches equality between man and women, rape is punishable by death in Islam. It is not as merciful as we are with 55 years, Murder is also punishable by death in Islam.

Luke chapter 19 verse 27
But as for those! These enemies of mine that don’t won’t me to rule over them bring them here and slay them before me.

Mathew chapter 10 verse 34 onwards
Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth, but a sword for I have come to set a son against a farther and a daughter against her mother, and so on
How many priests do we get in the media for molesting children, how many non Muslims do we get for rape? Do we blame there religion do we say this is what Jesus taught.
I am not attacking the bible, for it is pure beyond our understanding, nor am I attacking Jesus his beauty is beyond our imagination, that’s why Muslims don’t make imitation drawings of any prophet.
Boaz see the difference with me studying Islam is I don’t follow mans interpretation and I view things for my self, every Muslim I know says church and synagogue is the house of god.
Verse 62 Buqqura all Jews that belive in mosses all Christians that belive in Jesus all Moslems that belive in the prophet and Sabian if all work righteously and do good shall have no fear nor shall they greave.
I am not out to justify any evil committed by man. Like the inquisition like the holocaust like suddam Hussein, religion has all ways been a way to control man.
You picked one little thing in the Quran that you don’t understand and you made up so many things that have no grounds.
As a rabbi a priest and imam knows you can not isolate a verses from any scripture you must look at the revelation in its totality.

Peace be to you and your family

Dear Kooree.. I find this so frustrating, because I'm limited to trying to keep track of all these posts :)
Forgive me if I seem to go silent at times ok.. just look me up where you see me active and bounce a nulla nulla of my noggin to remind me to reply :)

I can see from the pattern of your last post that you are being fed the sugar coated version of Islam mate. Also, you are looking at the Bible and Jesus words in a way which is not supported by the bigger context.
I've been through that 'and slay them before me' with Pericles, but look at it closely mate.. it was a parable.. it was not a specific teaching about every detail. It was a story to convey one major truth.
The 'context' is this:
"You blokes think the final kingdom is coming immediately eh...
No..its like this"...(parable)

11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once.

See it ? "they thought..at once" hence.. story...

"Slay them b4 me" is about 'judgement day'.

The other bit about Jesus saying "You think I came to bring peace, no.. etc.. " its really clear if you look at the whole chapter and the whole of Jesus ministry. Specially after he died and rose.. and the actions of Paul... if not all members of a family embrace Christ, those who don't.. will often persecute those who did..THAT is the sword he is talking about mate. He is not saying he came to form an army or just wreck families. But if a member of a family repents, seeks forgiveness in Christ and is renewed.. the family can sometimes react rather violently.

The Bible....It's quite understandable mate.. its just a matter of reading the whole and reading carefully.
blessings.

Just because you keep repeating the same old tosh, Boaz, doesn't make it true.

>>I've been through that 'and slay them before me' with Pericles, but look at it closely mate.. it was a parable<<

Your answer then was inadequate and expedient, as it is once again here.

This always your response, however much you deny it.

If there is an "unwelcome" verse in the Bible, sure enough, to you it is metaphorical, not literal.

Whenever there is a supportive and humane verse from the Qur'an quoted back at you, sure enough, to you it is "the sugar coated version of Islam"

Why do you persist with such shallow tactics? It does you no credit, and simply confirms the view that you are only interested in denigration and rabble-rousing.

>>The Bible....It's quite understandable mate.. its just a matter of reading the whole and reading carefully<<

By "reading carefully", you simply mean "the Boaz way", don't you? It's very, very tedious.