...continued

How do you endure such hardships, O suffering servant?

If you stopped your torrent of misstatements and propaganda for a minute and listened to what I and other pro-Israel people here have been saying, you’d know that many of us support similar solutions. Israel has supported a similar solution at least since 1993. But the devil is in the details. Some parts of the Saudi proposal, e.g., settling millions of Palestinians in Israel, remain completely unacceptable. Other parts, e.g., the border issue, are promising but require negotiation.

Keith: “I have no problem with the US continuing or increasing it’s massive aid to poor little Israel as long as settlement on the above basis is agreed.”

So your previous discussion about foreign aid was entirely insincere (which I already knew). What happened to Washington’s grand moral stand against foreign entanglements? By your logic, you are now willing to promote “hatred and conflict”.

Implementation of a peace agreement would cost tens or even hundreds of billions of dollars for refugee resettlement, claims for compensation going back to 1948, economic and infrastructure development, security arrangements, etc. Some funds will need to come from Europe, Arab states, the UN, the World Bank, etc., but the largest bill will be paid by the US. (Clinton’s Camp David proposal included a $35 billion aid package, including $10 billion for compensating Palestinian refugees.)

Keith: “Such a settlement severely limits the influence of a nuclear armed Iran.”

Maybe. Any peace agreement will leave Israel intact and seemingly strengthened. Iran’s hostility is not primarily about the Palestinian issue; it opposes the very existence of Israel. It has made barely veiled threats to use nukes to “wipe Israel off the map”, which of course would also kill millions of Palestinians and destroy the Muslim holy places in Jerusalem. Iran must understand that this would also destroy Iran and kill millions of Iranians. If Iran is willing to turn its entire nation, and perhaps the region, into one big “suicide bomb”, why would an Arab-Israeli peace agreement deter it?

...

Yuyutsu, Olmert hasn’t completed his first year in office.

Dear Keith... you can call me a racist and a fool, but I’ll respond with “clearly you have great concerns about the Palestinians, and this is admirable” albeit somewhat misguided. I won’t call you names, after all this forum is about ‘ISSUES’ :)

Now.. re the problem which you seem to think is on the verge of being solved by a mellowed Olmert.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=2&cid=1173700695225&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[In an attempt to calm the fears of the Hamas rebels, some of the movement's top officials have issued a number of statements clarifying their strategy in the aftermath of the Mecca agreement.
"The agreement does not mean that Hamas will recognize the Israeli entity," said Hamas spokesman Ismail Radwan.]

The rebels in Hamas have been rebelling against any down turn in violence and struggle not that Israel might be recognized, as that would simply not happen in Hamas, as demonstrated by the above story.

So, my point about the extremes.... and them representing a barrier to your rather optimistic vision, remains entirely valid.

You asked ‘Where do we ship the Arabs” .. I’m sure that Saudi Arabia or some similar Arab/Muslim country with their uncountable wealth can carve out a slice of territory for them. But the actual location is not the important thing at this point.. the principle is. Personally, I’m attracted to the idea of dispersing them all around the world in small numbers so they cannot continue to pursue their violent agenda.

You also mentioned the establishment of Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital. Mate.. hell will freeze over before the Jews allow that. You better get back to your old testament and read from Genesis to the end of Kings at least.... Jeremiah, Nehemiah, Ezra, Isaiah, Ezekiel would also be beneficial in appreciating this.
Giving up Jerusalem would be like you ripping out your still beating heart and offering it to your enemy.
-think mate...cooeee.. oi..down here.. on the ground.. in the real world.

David

‘…The rebels in Hamas have been rebelling against any down turn in violence and struggle not that Israel might be recognized, as that would simply not happen in Hamas, as demonstrated by the above story.’

That David is an outright lie.

Page 2 of the story from the Jerusalem Post which you referenced concentrated only on the positions of the (few) Hamas ‘rejectionists’ of the Mecca Sgreement.

Page 1 of the full report was much more revealing of the positions adopted by the majority of the Hamas leadership and that part of the story shows the complete opposite of what you claim.

Couldn’t you face the real situation on the ground with Hamas?

Yutusu

I’ll make the question really simple.

Do you accept a sovereign Palestinian state at ’67 borders? By sovereign I mean it can make its own laws, have its own defence forces, you know all the things a sovereign state takes for granted.

Do you understand the basic concepts of Liberal Democracy? I don’t think you do or if you do you don’t think they apply to Israel. Simply put the majority elects the government. The government then represents all the people, those who voted for them as well as those who voted against them. This is a basic tenet of Western Liberal Democracies. The policy of the government determines the actions of the government internally and its actions towards other states. The Government of the day has very little to do with struggles between moderates and extremists in its day to day actions. The influence of those groups occurs at election times, in normal democracies…

And since Olmert takes a step towards peace you ‘dump’ on him with a vitriolic personal attack. What isn’t he representative of your views any longer?

Israel doesn’t view Palestine as its enemy…really? Then why is the Israeli Government controlled military occupying and suppressing all of Palestine?
.
So I need to overlook the Israeli government sanctioning of the oppression of the Palestinians before I can be constructive… Eh?

Sheeesh you say some pretty dumb things at times.

Steve

Can you show me precisely (References please) where Israel has ever shown they would accept any of the conditions that were enuciated that Arab League Peace proposal. I haven’t ever seen any endorsement in any manner by any of the Israeli leader of absolute acceptance of the pre’67 borders nor of acceptance of Palestinian sovereignty over Jerusalem. (Note David’s latest post, he seems to agree).
None of you who have been attacking me personally, and my views, have ever shown any support for either of those two conditions. In fact in response to my most recent article all of you basically suggested I was in dream world if I expected them to come about.

I disagree on the border issue, the border issue would not up for negotiation. The refugee issue is.

I am very excited at the recent small constructive steps towards peace. Why belittle my pleasure and the positive move towards a negotiated peace? You’ve shown your real feelings with your negativity. Your real feelings show Israelis fear peace and think domination ensures security. That’s the status quo. That’s what all of you hold dear to your hearts…and support.

Any peace agreement would mean Palestinians and Israelis would have secure homelands and neither would have any need to spend billions annually on weapons.
Two results would ensue: Iran would lose its influence in a secure democratic Palestine.
We’d soon see which country embraced and revelled in its democracy.

It is only Israel from who we have heard veiled threats of nuclear attacks on its neighbours.

Do you have the same low opinion of Olmert as Yutusu?

ps David…I asked: Where do you intend for the rounded up young Palestinian men, their womenfolk and children be exiled? To concentration camps and gas chambers?

Nothing about we, shipping or Arabs there…mate…Only you, young Palestinian men, their women and kids. What would you have done with the older men and their families…already gassed and cremated them? All just so their land can be stolen ? Ever heard of genocide David…yes of course you have…that’s what you are leading to David.

Keith,

I not only accept, but support a sovereign Palestinian state at the 1967 borders. Some remarks about it:

1. Having a sovereign Palestinian state at the 1967 borders is in Israel's true interest and would be one of the best things that could ever happen to Israel.

2. As far as Israel is concerned, the Palestinians were given many opportunities to date to declare their independent state. In fact, nothing prevents them from doing so today.

3. It is the Palestinian leadership that consistently refused all offers for an independent state: perhaps because they realize that it will help Israel and rather have their own people suffer than make life easier for Israel; perhaps because they even have an interest in keeping the suffering of ordinary Palestinians; perhaps also because they understand that with a democratic state they could not continue their corruption and abuse of power; and certainly because with having their own sovereign state they could no longer cry "occupation, cruel occupation", gaining the sympathy of a beggar pretending to have no legs.

4. I foresee that you will respond that the state which Israel offered the Palestinian was not over the full territory and with limitations over air-space: so what? at times it was over 97% of the territory and in any case, if the Palestinians really wanted a state of their own, they could start with what they get and try to expand later.

5. With the rights of a sovereign state, also come responsibilities. One cannot do whatever they like claiming "I am sovereign, I am sovereign": if a state behaves like Nazi Germany or North Korea, then the neighbouring countries have the right to act accordingly in their defence, including re-invade. Did you note that Hamas agreed, in return for the Saudi initiative, to "grant" Israel 10 years of cease-fire...

Olmert? he's dead but not indispensable. I still support his policy which he cannot deliver.

The Israeli government is NOT sanctioning the oppression of Palestinians (some Israeli extremists do): it simply has the responsibility to do what is necessary to protect its citizens.

keith

Sorry to keep the pressure up, but I am sure you are as concerned with the rights of displaced Jews from Arab lands as you are with those of the Palestinians. They were denied passports, given special taxes and discriminated against.

Also with the difference between the treatment of Christians and Druze in Arab Muslim lands and in Israel.

They are the truly forgotten people.

And why can't the rest of the Arab lands treat the Palestinian refugees as well as Israel treated these Jews who fled from Arab lands? After all they once were Jordanian citizens, what is Jordan doing?

And please don't evade the question with specious tricks like accusing me of racism or shouting Zionist propaganda. (Don't the Palestinians shout propaganda themselves?)