KEITH

You asked for ‘positive_contributions only’ well the major drawback is that even if the borders were settled as you say, there remains the problem of HAMAS and its theological basis and the only connection that has to ‘land’ is that it regards ALL as an “Islamic Waqf”, inalienable till the day of resurrection. Do you not see problems here ?

Steve clearly showed this by his link which leads to this report.

[GAZA (Reuters) - The Palestinian unity government which will be formed under an agreement reached in Saudi Arabia will not recognize Israel, a political adviser to Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh said on Saturday.

"The issue of recognition was not addressed at all (in Mecca)," Ahmed Youssef said. "In the platform of the new government there will be no sign of recognition (of Israel), regardless of the pressures the United States and the Quartet would exert," he said.]

So, before you woffle on about finding solutions and positive contributions, please read that report CAREfully... its exactly as I also posted from the Jerusalem Post link some days earlier and is entirely in harmony with that Hamas Charter which is again WHY I continually harp on that very issue.

You cannot build a skyscraper on a flawed foundation. No matter what kind of peace you seek which involved ‘acceptable borders’ you would still be missing that important link with the fundamental theological idea of ‘Muslim Lands’ Dar Ul Islam, -that is where Hamas is coming from and this idea goes from now, right back to Mohammed, the 4 rightly (ha!) guided Caliphs and the Quran and Hadith.

As far as Hamas is concerned, it also goes FORWARD to “The day of resurrection”

Ok..Positive contributions. (hyperthetical only)

Step 1 “Remove“ (permanently) every man/boy of fighting age connected to Hamas, Islamic Jihad and every other similar Palestinian group) -exile their women and children

Step 2 Take up your plan.

I promise you, as God lives, without that first step........ there will never ever be the 2nd.

But because no one will ever do “1” then 2 will forever elude us.

Yuyutsu

I responded to both you and sganot. The jibe about Young Kevvy was in response to sganot’s personal attacks. I was lazy by not distinguishing clearly between you and sganot. I have wrongly attributed to you ‘labels’. I apologise for any unintentional slight.

Let me remind you of your words.
‘Israel does not rely on American aid.’
The opening words of the 2002 briefing to the US Congress. (The report was referenced in my last post). Did you read it?
‘Israel is not economically self-sufficient and relies on foreign assistance and borrowing to maintain it’s economy.’

The briefing concludes Israel receives approximately $US5,000 million annually in various types of US aid. According to your figures Israel’s GDP in 2006 was $US160,000 million. It’s ratio of public debt to GDP is 90%. Its current Account is approximately $US140,000 million. Now if you take out over 3.0% of Israel’s GDP the country would collapse…quickly.

‘American military aid is not aid at all …’

Israel is not bound to spend all its aid in the US. Similarly the more than $US 1,600 million in military aid is not required to be spent entirely in the US. The aid given for joint projects, the Arrow anti missile defence, that woeful Merkava tank and the, aptly named, Lavi attack fighter (now abandoned) was a gift and was spent entirely in Israel. The sophistication of the US designed and Israeli owned weaponry is somewhat superior to the weaponry of the Palestinians. Judging by the use of the respective side’s weaponry failure is indicated by the Israeli war machine misuse. Why do you bother perpetrating the myths?

I regard anyone who defends the current practises of supporting one side or the other as supporting the status quo…that has only led to endless violence. Your statements reinforce such perceptions. I am anti-violence and peace-seeking. I prefer to question current practises and show a desire to see changing attitudes by all parties. An example was the slight Hamas position change in the Mecca Agreement and as stated in the current article.

I have endorsed the unconditional existence of Israel…at ’67 borders.

Do you support the formation of a Palestinian state?

Sganot

I exaggerated. But only by six times!

You claimed US aid was only $US240 million. Now you cite evidence it is $US2,560 million.
Your original understatement was a massive 11 times less! I’ve already noted your new figure still doesn’t include so many other sources of US aid.
What was the US military aid to the Palestinians? Did they receive loan guarantees, forgiven loans, interest on early payment, tax deductibility of donations to the Palestinians, and so many other hidden legislative benefits exclusively given to the Israelis by the US? In terms of those 000’s of millions 150 million is negligible.

The US has only one other joint weapons development program. The money is spent exclusively in the US. Treaties and military actions are not regarded as aid... by anyone

One thousand million is donated to Israel in the US annually by US citizens. That’s regarded as aid and hence donations are tax deductible. Guess the amount of the tax deductions? Those would otherwise be added to the US tax grab.

The US is decreasing its economic aid to Israel but increasing its openly declared military aid.
You chose can interesting website to support your claim, why don’t you at least read the independent Congressional briefing I referenced?

Egypt and Jordan receive approximately $US1,700 million annually. That’s not 90% of $2,566 million. It’s % is still overstated because of the other hidden benefits Israel receives.
.

Aqvarius

The only war recently launched in the area was by Israelis … into Lebanon.
'… Nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave …'
George Washington in his farewell address. (Famous US President.)

I agree with George. Anything other than George’s attitude promotes hatred and conflict.

keith

I have just returned from a well deserved weekend bushwalking and have not looked at this site for three days.

You have tried to dismiss by points by accusing my of racism (which I am not) and blaming me for the lack if peace. How about addressing my points? If any are wrong then show me why if not then address them. Your response is that of one who knows I am generally right and wishes I had not made them.

I have not blamed the Palestinians for everything but shown areas where Israel is reacting in a reasonable way.

Perhaps you could start by considering the displaced Jews from Egypt, Iraq etc and the better treatment of Arabs in Israel. You might even consider the matter of Dhimitude and the treatment of non Muslims in other middle eastern countries. This includes Christians and Druze and is no minor matter.

It is at the centre of the matter.

Keith,

Israel current account balance=$+2.3 billion; Australia CAB=$-42.09 billion; USA CAB=$-829.1 billion. Israel ratio of public debt to GDP =99.7%; Japan=158%! Why aren’t the American, Australian, or Japanese economies collapsing?

The Merkava is “woeful”? The Lavi is “aptly named”? Whatever.

Keith: “You claimed US aid was...$US240 million.”

I said “ECONOMIC aid”.

Keith: “...other sources of US aid.”

“Other sources” increase US aid to ~$2.6 billion.

Keith: “US military aid to the Palestinians? ... loan guarantees...?”

News flash: The USA doesn’t treat every state and people equally. It rewards allies, and punishes (or rewards less) enemies. The Palestinians don’t act much like an ally to the US, either.

Keith: “Treaties and military actions are not regarded as aid”

But while the US-Israel relationship works much like the US alliances with Europe, Australia, Japan, South Korea, etc., much of its funding of the former appears as “aid”; equivalent military spending on the latter doesn’t.

Keith: “...donated to Israel...by US citizens. ...regarded as aid ...donations are tax deductible...would otherwise be added to the US tax grab.”

If donations to Israeli charitable institutions were regarded as aid to a foreign government, they would not be tax deductible. And they would not “otherwise be added” to US taxes. Most of this money is donated through American communal organizations, churches, etc. If it weren’t spent in Israel, the tax deductions would be the same.

Keith: “The US is ...increasing its... military aid... interesting website to support your claim... read the independent Congressional briefing...?”

My “interesting website” uses the same source, but its figures are more up-to-date. Military aid has not increased.

Keith: “Egypt and Jordan... $US1,700 million... not 90% of $2,566 million.”

2006 aid to Egypt+Jordan=1,795+461=$2.256 billion; aid to Israel=$2,520 billion. Any other comparison is apples to oranges, and the “hidden benefits” only raise the Israeli amount to ~$2.6 billion.

Keith, have it your way. Let’s say that by removing all foreign aid to all sides (including Iranian, Saudi, European, UN, World Bank, and other aid to the Palestinians, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Hizbullah, etc.), we level the playing field. Go ahead. Make my day.

keith,
Yes, that's why ol' George was material in the American Revolution. Not much sense quoting from a man who didn't live up to his own philosophy, eh! George Washington famous British subject who took advantage of time and circumstance to not pay his taxes but, rather create a situation where by he can become the chief American tax collector. Hahahaha!
I shouldn't wonder why you can't bring a straight forward position on the discussion.
Aid nor material wealth is driving the Intifada. The first Intifada beginning in 1967 nor the second Intifada or al-Aqsa Intifada, that began in 2000. Not forgetting that the first Intifada which began in 1967 never ended.
It's about Jerusalem. The Israeli's are not going to give it to the PA and the PA have made it a blood debt to obtain Jerusalem for all of Islam.
Peace can only be achieved by removing all aid packages from direct control of the PA and institute on the ground International oversight.
Both the PA and Israel should be asked to appoint a friendly country to police the borders as they stand now, while negotiations are in effect. Thus removing the belligerent's and opportunities for "misunderstandings" or any excuse that furthers violence. This is not to facilitate a peace process alone but, a comprehensive redress of all issues to bring an end once and for all.