keith

You are not a Palestinian by any chance? With that sort of attitude there can be no peace. Israel by any definition is a liberal democracy. All religions are given equal rights. It is in no way apartheid. There are no special taxes on non Jews or any forced separation between people. People of different religions can cohabit. Any one is allowed to change their religious faith as long as the others of that faith are happy to accept them.

The land was not stolen.

I did not blame the Palestinians for the violence, shows how carefully you read my contributions.

The occupation is of a group who have and continue to attack Israel with violence, suicide bombings rocket attacks etc. They have in fact been given back their independence, they were in fact part of Jordan before the war.

Now stop your smokescreen and answer my pertinent points of discussion.

What about the non-Muslims pushed out of Muslim Nations? These were often ancient communities which predated Mohammedan by hundreds of years.

Why did the surrounding Muslim nations not take in the refugees in the same way that Israel took in the Jewish refugees and a quite a few Druze and Christians.

If you don't attempt to answer these points it will just show how baseless and one-sided your whole case really is.

Dear Keith.
you are sounding like you have run out of argument mate.. all you are doing is pointing the finger at us as 'warmongers' (in meaning)

All I showed was the following:

1) Hamas is the biggest obstacle to peace because they adamantly :
a)Refuse to renounce violence.
b)Refuse to Recognize Israel.
c)Want all Jews OUT or only 'in' as the lowest of Dhimmi's.

2) Israel rejects the new 'unity' government because of the above.

Who, pray tell do you blame for Hamas having this attitude ? Israel ?

If its "Israels" Fault..and they do all that you ask:

-67 borders
-Give up claim to East Jerusalem

Will Hamas suddenly and miraculously be transformed into anything differnt than they are now ?

A better question is "Will the Pope suddenly become Protestant"

The Israeli 'wall' sure ain't meant to keep people IN.. you know what its for...and its working.

Rather than overload you Keith, I'll limit this post to what I've mentioned, and ask if you have a real world answer for the theological position adopted by Hamas, and while ur at it, do you have an answer for the theological position of the Orthodox and Settlers ?

I think you alluded to your view in that last post by saying a peace must be imposed on Israel by the USA.. well I suggest you read the book of Daniel, and Esther to see just how God superintends the interests of His elect even when they are dispersed and exiled.
How much more when they are returning to their land after all this time ? (yes.. that is my 'theological' view)

CONCLUSION. If you cannot come up with a way of removing Hamas, other than execution or conversion, then .... I hold little hope for any kind of lasting solution.
We are not against peace, we are just against a Chamberlain style "peace in our time"

Keith,

"you believe in a Palestinian state so long as Israel can re-invade any time it feels Palestine isn't doing as it wants."

No: what Palestine does within its borders or in relating with other countries is none of Israel's business, but if Israel is attacked, or faces an imminent attack, Israel has the right to defend itself by any means, including re-invasion (should that be the most effective option). If Palestine has no intensions to harm Israel, there should be nothing for them to worry about.

"You see oppression as justified because you believe it brings security."

No: oppression is an intentional act and I do not support it. However, Israel is struggling for its survival, and it is an undesirable but unavoidable and unintentional side-effect of war that people can feel oppressed. It should be minimized wherever possible.

"You blame the Palestinians for the violence."

I already wrote clearly that I blame the extermists on both sides for the violence.

"I don't see how Isreal can ever truely want peace if you blokes are representative of Israeli opinion."

Most Israelis want peace, but wanting is not enough. As I wrote above, there needs to be TRUST and GUARANTEES, and I cannot see how peace can be achieved so long as Israel is so much hated by a world that is full of blokes like you.

"Peace will need to be forced on Israel by an America afraid of the nuclear armed Iranians"

America of all people? that war-mongering empire who sides with the settlers (of which many are American themselves)? Nay, they like wars, and they like to use Israel as their cannon-fodder (including receiving the blame from people like you), they are part of the problem rather than of the solution. They do not allow Israel to make peace against their interests, especially of their arms-industry. Sadly, it is only because of blokes like you that Israel is forced to be subject to American whims.

"You blokes opinions don't matter any more."

1. Did they ever matter?
2. Then why are you discussing anything with us?

Keith, you again presume to tell people what they believe. How very disrespectful. And there is no need to “repeat” what we believe. What we believe, we’ve said, in our own words. People here can read.

In any case, what a few random people happen to believe is irrelevant to the conflict. Speak to the issues, instead of making your posts about your misinterpretations of our beliefs.

Keith: “Israel is... an apartheid system.”

Former US President Carter: “I know that Israel is a wonderful democracy with equal treatment of all citizens whether Arab or Jew.”

Keith: “...your thinking is leading to a holocaust for the Palestinians.”

I strongly oppose David’s plan for transferring Arabs out of Israel and PA territories, but it is NOT a holocaust.

Keith: Steve, you believe in a Palestinian state so long as Israel can define it's borders.”

Borders cannot be defined by one side alone, but must be defined by both in a mutual agreement.

You, not me, keep pressing for borders dictated by one side only. You, not me, said “I have endorsed the unconditional existence of Israel…at ’67 borders”, i.e., belief in Israel so long as Palestine can define its borders.

Keith: “You blame the Palestinians for the violence.”

Each side is responsible for the violence it has perpetrated.

Keith: “I don't see how Isreal can ever truely want peace if you blokes are representative of Israeli opinion.”

As far as I know, I’m the only Israeli here. And what makes you think we represent anyone except ourselves?

Keith: “Peace will need to be forced on Israel by an America afraid of the nuclear armed Iranians.”

How can peace be forced?

Keith: “The Americans have woken up to that fact and that's what's happening right now. You blokes opinions don't matter any more. Such rubbish will be swept aside in a surge for peace. And that will be in all our interests.”

This is the sort of giddy, overly optimistic (from your point of view) statement, apparently based on Olmert making one luke-warm, non-committal comment on the Saudi plan, that I belittled earlier.

Steve
Yes each side is responsible for the violence. But you demand an unconditional stop to all resistance on the part of the Palestinians but refuse to end the occupation without negotiation of borders. You are being deliberately provacative aren't you?

How can peace be forced? You asked. Look to history man.
War can force peace.
Nuclear deterrants can force peace.
Threatening funding can force peace, just as the US forced Israel to accept peace with Egypt and Jordan.
Public opinion can force peace...Did you forget Lebanon?

Why do you think peace can be forced with occupation and domination?

The forced 'mutual agreement' on borders was originally the UN mandate, then the armistice line after the 'mutual agreement' war of '48. Take your pick of either of those as 'mutually agreed' borders. The Israelis have consistantly shown they are unable to accept any borders. The world will decide and force them on Israel. They'll be at the '67 line...with Lebanon, Syria and Palestine.

Olmet's acceptance of that Arab plan as a basis for negotiations is a major departure from the traditional zionist desire for a greater Israel. Your belittling of him and the advance he made only re-inforces that widely and traditionally held Israeli attitude.

The world is starting to recognise the Unity Government of the Palestinians (Norway yesterday). Israel eventually will be forced to do the same and seriously deal with them and that Arab peace proposal. That's what the world will want. The world will force peace onto Israel. The Palestinians are already showing they want peace. It is only Israeli attitudes, of which you exhibit classic examples, that are preventing peace.

keith, your twisting and turning may make a shambles out of my post but, any reasonable person will not find your interpretation. I blame Palestinians for everything they have ever done to promote violence and blame Israeli's for their violence. Outside of that I can see some very obvious realities not being discussed. One, is that Palestinians leave to never return to contribute to a better Palestinian State. The educated and business class immigrate leaving those who never worked for anything or worked to create anything and have no interest in creating, in power, living off world charity, and continuing a war that will never end in victory for Palestine.
Two, is that Israel is a growing and thriving democracy that is attracting people from all over the world to live and contribute to that society. A society that is only going to be made better regardless of any peace initiative.
I'm not like you. I can't blame the Joos for everything and raise up Palestinians as victims of a Zionist intent. My plan was posted as complete redress of all issues. You have chosen to attach an ugliness to it that only suits your emotional protection of the PA as victim.