Irfan,
You said. "The theology I was brought up with was that a devoted Muslim should adopt the culture of the country s/he was going to"

If all muslims adopted that theology we would not have any problems.
You also spoke about different tribes. We seem to have a lot more than a few that speak rudely or offensively to women, which Aussie women certainly dislike. Some complain about nativity scenes at shopping malls and complain that females in scanty dresss at beaches is offensive to them. Appear to have much distain for our laws and police officers. Many seem to believe that women in western dress are whores. We must have adopted the wrong tribe.

I do not think John Howard is right if he said 99% of muslims are fully integrated.

The above mentioned matters are reason muslims have not got a good reputation. The question is what can we do about it. appeasment semms to be taken as a sign of weakness. Other than stopping muslim immigration what can you suggest?

Again I state that I DO NOT HATE MOSLEMS! though I do think that islam is despicable and I do know that islam will one day be no more.
Having said that right now I am very wary of islam and I do not like it in Australia at all. So some sad adherents claim that they have spoken back to imams but only the little imams a biggie would have them be-headed.
One of many reasons I do not think that moslems belong here is as follows: 'Khomeini's teachings on sex with infants and animals - islamic teachings on sex with infants' quote - "A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby, however he should not penetrate. If he penetrates and the child is harmed then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however would not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl's sister.- end of quote. the complete Persian text of this saying can be found in "Ayatollah Khomeini in Tahrirolvasyleh, fourth edition, Darol Elm, Qom
Just one more: Islamic teachings on sex with animals - "The meat of horses, mules or donkeys is not recommended. It is strictly forbidden if the animal was sodomised while alive by a man. In that case the animal must be taken outside the city and sold". end of another appalling quote. Yes I hesitated to post these would you believe! I know that most moslems in Oz probably would not agree with these teachings but some would and no doubt do and Oz would be better off without them. Regards, numbat PS The above from "Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation" web site

'I have no great love of Islam (or ay other religion), but I have a strong abhorrence of bigotry - which is all too apparent here.'

Sorry CJMorgan, but I see little bigoty contained in Irfan's threads. That is, the personal attacks are few and far between. In fact, when they do occur they are likely to come from Irfan himself.

What the participants are doing is opening up the ideology of Islam to critism and scepticism. This is a very healthy thing and indicates a vibrant society.

I see no practical reason why any religion should be off limits when it comes to questioning the fundamentals of its dogma or the conduct of its oligarchy. In fact, if there is an ideology worth critising it is the monotheism of Islam and its cousins, Judaism and Christianity.

ANY gagging of the right to freedom of speech is simply beyond the pale and detrimental to society.

With that in mind I now reserve the right to declare that Mohammad the Prophet did not talk to the angel Gabriel because angels are as about as likely as garden fairies and unicorns, that the resurrection story of Jesus is a myth of the early Church, and that there is absolutely no hard evidence that Abraham ever existed in real life.

That CJMorgan is NOT bigotry but merely telling the Truth. And while Sunnis kill Shia, Jews kill Palestinians, Christian neo-con's invade other peoples' countries and brain-washed young men detonate themselves on London buses, this Truth NEEDS to be told, and retold again, and again.

(Thankyou Irfan for providing this opportunity!)

"With that in mind I now reserve the right to declare that Mohammad the Prophet did not talk to the angel Gabriel because angels are as about as likely as garden fairies and unicorns, that the resurrection story of Jesus is a myth of the early Church, and that there is absolutely no hard evidence that Abraham ever existed in real life."

Actually TR, I don't think we disagree with very much in substance. However, while it's a bit late in this thread, I think that our disagreement might revolve around the relative evils of one version of Abrahamic mythology over another.

I could mount a case about the intrinsic involvement of Christianity in the evolution of world capitalism and all of its subsequent corollaries (like environmental depradation, third world poverty, global warming etc). Others could point out that contemporary Islamism is on only a problem because of the unhappy accident of the existence of vast oil reserves in the Middle East.

However, such cogent perspectives are entirely lost on those poor souls whose introspective worldviews are limited to their experience of their suburb, or of the world as delivered via 'Fox News' or 'A Current Affair' etc.

Irfan, re. your post of Tuesday, 20 March 2007 8:52:33 AM.

You sprayed: "And it makes so much sense to judge 1.2 billion people by the actions of one person. Lots of wisdom and logic on display there".

Did I say at any point in the post which mentioned the Islamic fundamentalist at a London demonstration, that he was somehow representative of 1.2 billion people? No I didn't, ABSOLUTELY NOT AT ALL. So I would suggest that the absence of wisdom and logic is totally on your side mate.

As for the flouting of orders of the family court, how is this comparable to chanting: "Europe you will pay. Your annihilation is on its way." Or, "We will take revenge on you. ... And take their [Danish] wives as war booty." Or, "Kill, kill Denmark." Ad nauseum.

This chanting is from a demonstration held in London on February 3rd, 2006. I have the wmv file (sound and vision) on my computer. And I should note that there were not one, or two, or three but hundreds of FASCISTS (Islamic fundamentalists) at this demonstration. Are you going to pretend that these people aren’t Muslims, Irfan?

Yvonne, re. your post of Tuesday, 20 March 2007 11:29:37 AM

I read two out of the three articles that you referenced (the first link didn't work). How exactly are the 20 to 30 million strong Christian fundamentalists influencing "life for the rest of us?"

They are certainly trying to influence American foreigh policy in the Middle East (Israel and its neighbours) but are they bringing death and destruction upon the inhabitants of Darfur as is being waged by the Islamist regime in Khartoum? Why indeed is their this deathly silence about Darfur by Islamophiles such as yourself - is it because they (people of Darfur) is black?

I would suggest to you that the most "unholy alliance" at present is between those elements of the left who are marching arm in arm with the most rank type of Islamists (the homophobes, the misogynists, the anti-communists) merely because the Islamist is anti-American.