I believe both groups pose a threat to our society, especially the Exclusive Brethren, and any of either group that can be deported should be. As JWH once said "we will decide who comes here and the circumstances under which they come"so apparently the Howard Government thinks it's in the national interest to have radical fanatical groups join our already complex society, thanks Johnny.

Indeed, they are dangerously extreme. The government must immediately ban Hizb ut-Tahrir for the safety of Australia.

See Nemesis-http://www.con.observationdeck.org

Irf.. the only problem with the moderates offering themselves as an alternative to Hizb is that Hizb and company will point to this or that Quran verse or historical event and in particular the things happening to Muslims in lands of conflict, and the old faithful the 'Palestinian issue' and use the 'you are bad Muslims if you don't become more vocal and struggle more' ploy to encourage them into deeper and more fanatical committment.

Sheikh faiz certainly has not helped discourage that direction.

So, I think its a lost cause to expect the moderates to win the hearts and minds campaign with idealistic youth.

I am still reeling from the scene in Regents Park mosque in London, where radicals came in and berated everyone for not being better muslims, promising Islam will rule in the UK whether people liked it or not, and telling the Government minister 'how dare he' set foot on 'Muslim territory'......

I wish you all the best, but cannot see much progress being made there.

Irfan Yusuf

"In what manner can HT empower young Australian Muslims to change the situation? HT teaches that active involvement in democratic politics represents a fundamental breach of the sacred law. Democracy and secularism are declared un-Islamic, voting is forbidden and membership of secular political parties regarded as virtual apostasy. HT insists Muslims work outside the system and re-invent a more "Islamic" wheel, an approach seen by the well-integrated majority of Muslims as an exercise in futility."

So, if or when it is no longer seen as futile this well-integrated majority of Muslims will what? Rush to join HT. And at that moment the rest of Australia can begin to worry? Like if the Howard government doesn't continue to pay the jizya. What's the latest bribe of appeasement. $38 million?

Hizb ut-Tahrir is just one more in a list of anti-Australian, anti-integration, hateful rhetoric coming from a particular segment of Australian Muslim society that is not being vocally refuted by that well-integrated majority. Really Sir. All the majority of non-Muslim Australians want to hear from the Muslim community is a refutation of the hateful Anti-Australian cultural rhetoric, and more scrutiny in choosing their leadership. The al- Hilali types are not appropriate leaders at any time.

I have read the Hizb Al-Tahrir al-Islami constitution:

http://www.hizb-ut-tahrir.info/english/constitution.htm

I found nothing un-Islamic or radical in there – it’s all Islam 101.

This Islamic group is more organised and more focused than the other hundreds floating around. HT is not new - but has resurfaced lately because of their Global Khalifate Conference in Sydney on Australia Day Weekend.

They are simply putting the words of the Qur'an and Traditions (Hadiths) into a more disciplined Leninist fashion. A simple call to reorganise Islam under one Global Leadership. Nothing wrong with that.

If we have to ban an Islamic group for simply expressing their basic Islamic views and Islamiv aspirations, trying to apply the tenets of Islam, we must seriously consider exposing and banning Islam itself.

That is why intelligent governments like UK and OZ did not ban HT (just yet) because they are not more radical or more dangerous than other Islamic groups - as the Media depicted them - HT has not deviated from main stream Islam, HT is just a well defined vocal Islamic group.

To outlaw Hizb Al-Tahrir equals to outlaw Islam itself – pure and simple.

Have we all forgotten about the Exclusive Brethren people, and gone straight for a Muslim attack, the Brethren are close to the Liberal Party is this why nobody is mentioning them.

Some lunatic right religious group is at the moment hijacking the NSW Branch of the party, I have seen the name David Clarke mentioned in connection with this, any relationship?

Both groups should be closely monitored by A.S.I.O. and deported if they become too un-American, sorry I mean un-Australian.

coach, you might like to read ths ...

http://www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=1857_0_25_0_C

A fascinating link Irfan... it's a shame it's difficult to create a vocal movement based on the acknowledgment of complexity over simplicity.
Much easier to rally the ignorant to a cause that serves your purposes, be that cause a caliphate or muslim bashing in the lead up to an election.

Great link Irfan.

I thought the comments below the article said more than the article itself. Very interesting commentary on the understanding of Islam by Muslims.

Thanks for the link Irfan.

Islamists (and therefore all Muslims) assume that Islam IS the right religion 'din' from God.

I am yet to be convinced, my reasons for that is the many flagrant contradictions (it) has with the prophetic and historical events of the Bible.

The Islamic doctrines of “sin” and “salvation” for example are contrary to the Bible. Allah causes people to sin, i.e. is the source of evil, and choose who enters paradise.

The most pious Muslim has NO Guarantee to see heaven. It’s all Insha’Allah… god willing.

The God that I know is all pure and detests sin and cannot accept sin to enter heaven. Islam says if your good deeds surpass your bad ones you “might” enter – but first you shall go to Hell and work your way up to heaven walking on a hair-thin bridge. Yet another impossible hurdle for the self-saving Muslim soul. How can Allah be a merciful god?

The God of the Bible offers a Guarantee of salvation - here and now - NOT maybe in the thereafter.

This is the point of contention between the One True God and the dualistic (good and evil) god of Islam.

Then we have the prophet Mohammad, with wrong CV applying for Biblical prophethood...

The Qur’an contains too many imperfections therefor cannot be the immutable word from God.

How can I trust a false religion to take part in the running of my or any country? Islam has not the moral DNA makeup to envisage any policy making of any non-Islamic regime.

If Islam cannot provide the basic moral right or wrong, (Allah causes man to sin = man does not take responsibility for his actions = utter predestination) how could it safeguard social values?

So do you see where I come from?

I am not making up stories just to have a go at Islam bashing – these are deep intrinsic differences that cannot co-exist with liberal (Christian) based democracies.

Irfan - a well written article.

I think the wider public are not only concerned about the potential extremist religious groups but also at times the lack of moderate counterweights to such.

Let's face it, mass society can be quite impressionable, rather ignorant and narrow-minded. Without massive steps in education that is unlikely to ever change. History has clearly displayed how the actions of a few can tarnish the appearance of the many in the eyes of the vast.

So for communities such as the Australian muslim one which appears to have a handful of spokespeople with extremist views, where are those moderate ones shouting their differing views from the rooftops? If I was part of such a community I doubt I'd tolerate being painted by the brushes of Al-Hilaly or a sensationalising media.

**Cue CJ Morgan's accusations of me simply being an Islamaphobe unwilling to encourage the engagement in productive dialogue with people of contrasting beliefs**

" Dr Ameer Ali is calling for Govt resources to combat Hizb ut- Tahrir"
Well Irfan ,if the so called moderate Muslim Majority weren't so scared of the extremists and actually showed some courage,there would not be the necessity for Govt funding to prop up these invertebrates who seemingly cannot speak for themselves.

At every turn,we see people like yourself explaining or opologising for some Muslim indiscretion.

When Muslims actually protest in the streets on masse about the extremists in their fold,then we will begin to trust them.

Until then ,don't expect understanding or compassion.Your Muslim community is not trying hard enough to gain both the trust and respect of this great nation which has welcomed Muslims on the basis of tolerance and open minds.

Our patience is wearing thin and crying racism or victim status just falls on deaf ears.

Hmmmm...man really hasn't learnt from history has it?

First it was the Roman's trying to extinguish this threat known as Christianity..then in the 12th to 14th Century it was the Spanish Inquisition that tried the method of "convert or die" to Catholicism...regardless if you were a Christian. Throughout the ages the Jew's have been blamed for just about everything resulting in the greatest recorded atrocities in the Holocaust...and now Muslims extremist called for martyrdom in the name of Islam and calling for a Utopian Islamic country...when will the fools of this world ever learn that there is no such thing a creating the perfect society by an ideology known as religion?

If the Islamics of this world want to create that society, hey please buy a ticket to Indonesia or Pakistan....aren't they known as a Islamic Republic?

Pushing religionists ideology on society should not be tolerated in this society and largely unchecked or dismiss...I'm sure I've seen this type of toleration before in a society...ummmm Hitler and the Nazi party?

Police in Briton are holding 9 possible Islamist terroists, nothing new there.
A leader in the comunity spoke this morning on BBC about how these people are not mainstream Muslims, and included a warning to us all not to defame Islam ,nothing unusual about that.
He put more effort into that part of his speach ,nothing unusual about that.
The fact is we are bound to suffer because of our free way of life untill we mindlessly dislike SOME Muslims as much as they do us ,nothing at all unusual about that.
We can not live together untill we hear more Muslims condemning that defending terroists.

MR OMG well pointed out.

There can never be an earthly religious utopia. The common factor between the historical brutality of the Church and Islamic rulers is the existence of a large beaurocracy.. where the religion has also become an extension of the State or..even the State itself.

Christ said "My kingdom is not of this world, if it were, my followers would fight to defend me"....he said "The kingdom of God is in the midst of you" in our hearts. In my view this is a wonderful thing about 'fundamental' Christianity. There is no call to establish a 'Christian State' ..the Church exists without a building even, because the Church is the people. "Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, I am there in the midst of them".

So, returning to true, 'fundamental' new testament Christianity is a very good option.

Hizb Ut Tahrir would have it otherwise. They are promoting specifically an Islamic state with all that implies. Lets hope their views do not infect to many young Muslims in Australia. Unfortunately, Islam by nature means 'A State'.

The problem is BOAZ_David that many right wing Christians think the same as these jokers. At the moment their methods maybe different but that was not always the case and may not be in the future. The point to make is that any religious movement that doesn't have secular values should be watched carefully. It's easy to get distracted by violent groups but the fact is that some of biggest changes to our civilisation were bloodless.

I don't believe any group should be banned unless they do something actually illegal, such as inciting violence. Human nature being what it is, the surest way to stimulate interest in something is to ban it.

A number of posters in this thread have wondered why moderate muslims aren't taking a stronger stand against the extremists. I've wondered it myself. Perhaps they simply are not as organised as the extremists - by their nature, moderates tend not to band together in order to passionately advocate moderation.

Meanwhile, lets keep a close eye on those dangerous Jehovahs Witnesses - apparently they teach that the Kingdom of God must be established here on Earth, and that all non-believers will die!

Cheers.

"Many young Muslims are upset about what is being done to Muslims in Iraq, Palestine etc ect"
Who is doing what to whom? It appears that Muslims are killing Muslims with no hint of remorse or cessation. A mother has a shrine to her suicide bomber son who blew himself and any one else near to pieces. Some hero!
Young children are pictured playing among bloody debris. The sheer barbaric savagery is Muslim versus Muslim.
Stupid Westerners are caught in the middle.
We should not be there, they should not be here.

In a taped interview just before he commited both murder and killed himself a young Muslim spoke of the death of Muslims in Iraq.
We can only ask why he thought the gassing of people was done by anyone other than a Muslim.
His long list of hate included charges that could only be laid at the door of other Muslims.
And I have to ask why is it lies are so often used? why is it ok to lie?
And why is it the larger Muslim comunity is so often silent?
We are faced with a dreadfull short term future not just the west but the Muslim world unless those now silent find voice soon.

There isn't much I can do for people who blame an entire faith-community of 1.2 billion people for the actions of a few. I can only recommend they seek medical attention, because their words are as mad as the terrorists they allegedly condemn.

I refuse to blame all Christians for the actions of Christian priests who molest children or for Christian Church authorities who intimidate and pressure families of victims into silence.

I refuse to blame all Hindus for the actions of a small fraction of BJP fanatics or for the excesses of the Tamil Tigers.

As for the so-called refusal to condemn, I've rarely seen any of our armchair Muslim-haers condemning the Exclusive Brethren or CTF who teach their followers to hate other peopleor tear down their houses of worship. Nor have I seen them condemning American Christians who support and carry out the documented excesses of Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo etc.

Still, some people cannot be helped. They are determined to hate. Today they hate Muslims just as their forefathers hated Jews. And if their hatred persists, they should see a doctor.

word to that Irfan

The trouble is Irfan,we do not know how few the lunatics are.What percentage are actually moderate and what percentage want to intergrate with Western Culture without destroying our democracies.
Islam and democracy are not compatible and that is why people like yourself want Sharia Law imposed in Australia.

Irfan

Islams war against the west has been going on for more than 30 years. To compare that with some wack-job born again Christian evangelist is hardly worthy. Those Christian's are never going to do anything and if they ever behave like the Islamic militants in Australia, Argentina, Britain, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, India, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Philippines, Portugal, Russia, Spain, Sweden, or the United States,( I left out the Islamic States and Islamic Africa and S.E. Asia) they will be dealt with in short order and will not have the umbrella of victimization adopted by the Islamic militants in the above mentioned countries.

"The intended hostage - said to be a young Muslim soldier in the British army who had served in Afghanistan - would have been filmed, made to plead for his life and ultimately executed".

One of the men arrested in the Alum Rock area was named locally as Amjad Mahmood, 29.
Local councillor Ansar Ali Khan said he had spoken to the father of the arrested man. Councillor Khan said: "He was in shock to know that his son had been arrested."
He described him as "a very hard working local businessman", adding: "He has served the community for 30 years and he is proud to be British. He can not imagine his son having any link to this sort of activity."

This is happening all over the world. Not just here or there. Not just once in a blue moon, but regularly, and there doesn't seem to be any let up. To suggest that any person speaking out or angered by this ought to look at Christianity is absurd.

I feel for you. You shouldn't need to feel that you must run to the defence of militant Islam. You should be able to say you are against such actions and such people with out feeling as a betrayer of your faith or being seen as an apologist. You mustn't take peoples fear of the continuation of these events as hate. It's just fear. The fear of not being able to trust your neighbour.

Irfan, it wouldn't matter if there were a dozen crank "christian" religions, they may attract a few believers.......just as you state there are just a few Islamic fanatics.
But if there are "just a few " Islamic fanatics, they are doing dreadful things in this world and not just in one place.
The few cranks have no influence on the majority of Australians,we tend to regard them with some amusement.
Muslims pose a terrible threat because they are so single minded, do not integrate and believe that this is their world, not ours.And are determined to bring in Muslim laws .
There is no trust between us, too much harm has been done by both sides .Our ways differ too much for there to be peace .

So do we start the ovens ups?

Seems like the solution will be one of war?

It's a pity....everyone's blood's red and breathe the same oxygen, yet we are determined to blow ourselves up!